Talk:6 times 9/Archive/2009-05

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In light of the fact that you are an admin, and it also seems that we are having a resurgence of vandals and trolls, I'd recommend protecting your user page, so that at least there, no one can edit your own page out from under you. In fact, I'd recommend it to any of the admin.
King_Nee1114 (talk pagecontributionsdeletions) 07:23, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

Done Thanks for the suggestion! — 6×9 (Talk) 12:52, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

delete or redirect?

all these \' pages that keeep popping up, delete or redirect? ∃cho⚡ierr∀ ( ) 12:54, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

Probably best to redirect – this way at least they won't crop up again. — 6×9 (Talk) 12:56, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
Thanks, will do. btw, Elvis slapped a block on your talk page b4 he left the building, wuznt'me ;) ∃cho⚡ierr∀ ( ) 12:59, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

Artist Page Name vs. listed Songs

see Neil Young & Crazy Horse & Captain Beefheart. Just curious why the artist of tracks can't match the artist page. ∃cho⚡ierr∀ ( ) 14:37, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

Don't ask me, ask Red. And be thankful she never got to work on FZ, or we'd have Frank Zappa, Zappa, The Mothers, Las Mothers, Zappa/Mothers, Frank Zappa and The Mothers of Invention, Zappa/Beefheart (not to mention Frank Vincent Zappa & The Abnuceals Emuukha Electric Symphony Orchestra & Chorus) all on the same page. — 6×9 (Talk) 14:46, 1 May 2009 (UTC) that SH!!] ought to be a booby trap! (we need those categorized for future generations...)
side note on the Mothers.... he wanted to call them "The Mothers..." and the record label forced him to change it :)
∃cho⚡ierr∀ ( ) 14:50, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
Yep – "Out of necessity, we became the Mothers of Invention." :-) (I always suspected Red's preview button was broken… this confirms it.) — 6×9 (Talk) 14:54, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
Did I miss one...?  Яєdxx Actions Words 15:04, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
Well, whatever that SH stuff is/was, and how many of them there are, hopefully they won't come back again, looked like somebody went to the nth degree to spam the SongHeader, lol ∃cho⚡ierr∀ ( ) 15:08, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
At the time it worked… The "alias" parameter I added a few days ago (to make these things simpler in the future) broke it. — 6×9 (Talk) 15:20, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
So hopefully the little elves will move the song pages or artist page to match each other? It'd be a first if one admin slaps on another admin talk page, the dreaded words LW:PN...ROTFL again ∃cho⚡ierr∀ ( ) 15:28, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
I didn't create the wrongly named pages, another little elf did ;)
However, my personal opinion with regards to the song pages for Neil Young etc. and Captain Beefheart etc. is that they are probably best left as they are. Some songs have been released under both names anyway. But if you feel differently Echo, by all means move them.  Яєdxx Actions Words 15:54, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
I don't mean to offend anyone's personal choices, but I'm not talking about my personal choice. thank you for your understanding ∃cho⚡ierr∀ ( ) 16:07, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
These artists that can't quite make up their minds who they are (or their labels) do present problems. If those pages had nothing on them it would be a different matter. I split the Jimi Hendrix page up to differentiate between those released under his sole name, and those with the Experience. I also did the Bob Marley page. I have spent the last couple of days setting up the Ron Wood page. Now when I hit on the page there was nothing on it..well there was one solitary song. Now Woody takes it in turns to release albums under the names of Ronnie and Ron Wood. But it would seem completely daft to me to have two artist pages just on this basis. So I guess what I'm saying is that I think each case like this should be judged on it's own basis and the options weighed up. What I do consider important however, is that the album pages are correctly named. This is the approach I gave to Woody. But I chose to name all song pages "Ron Wood". As per artist page.  Яєdxx Actions Words 21:53, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
You're complicating matters unnecessarily. If it's not worth splitting into two artist pages, it shouldn't have different artist names for albums or songs either. That's what the alias parameters are for. (Or would you move the first two Soft Machine albums to "The Soft Machine:…"? Then again, seeing that you did exactly that with Van der Graaf, maybe you would…) — 6×9 (Talk) 22:01, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
shezzahavingherbadweeklyhairday. Times totally grasped what I meant first go, and I don't even speak Anglo-Bavarian. ROTFL ∃cho⚡ierr∀ ( ) 22:31, 1 May 2009 (UTC) You know what WLH is? check WLH on both pages I mention, enjoy the mess, your tip is Simon &/And Garfunkel. Keep the longer names no? lol
Artist Redirects anyone? Why do I, or anyone, via web or api, have to go thru multiple artist pages to look up ONE Artist? I had all Bob Marley pages under his name and in his namespace and you were personally offended so much so that you slapped a b*tchygram on my talk page, I ain't stooping that low, Red. Make up your mind, or make up the doc pages to reflect your indecision. I'm not spouting my personal prefs here. Times is smart enough not to create spaghetti artist pages, everybody is not like him. ∃cho⚡ierr∀ ( ) 22:46, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
As I said at the beginning of my post these artists do present problems. And yes 6, if the album is The Soft Machine, then in my opinion that is how the album page should be named. Not something it is not. We shouldn't be creating wrongly named album pages to suit ourselves, to reduce entries in WLH (no Echo I haven't got a clue what that is), or indeed for any reason other than capitalisation and technical display issues. You two think differently. I accept that.
As for your comments above Echo, I will but say this. "Times" has already indicated that he doesn't want his talk page to be used as a public arena. If you have as much respect for him as you say, then maybe you should respect that. Like I intend to do. I'll leave you to it.  Яєdxx Actions Words 00:30, 2 May 2009 (UTC)
WLH = What Links Here. The pagename is the pagename. For displaying the correct album title, we have the header in the infobox. For displaying the correct artist name, we have the "Album by …" line at the top. What about user-friendliness? What about doing away with (not yet, but eventually) unnecessary parameters? The latter will require that artist-in-albumpagename = artistpagename. All in all this is a major complication for a minor aesthetic preference. (Not to mention that to rename an album, but not its songs, defeats the whole point of that.) — 6×9 (Talk) 02:51, 2 May 2009 (UTC)
WLH = What Links Here. Thank you "Times" but I thought you would've (note the correct usage of the apostrophe) known that I had chosen to be as serious in my response as Echo had been by asking such a dumb question. I actually find (Special Prefix Index) to be a lot more useful ;)
Minor aesthetic preference? Wanting a pagename to reflect the actual artist who released the album, i.e. Neil Young & Crazy Horse, not Neil Young solo? Bob Marley & The Wailers, not just Bob Marley?
Sorry, but that's not minor aesthetic preference to me.  Яєdxx Actions Words 11:40, 2 May 2009 (UTC)
Red is apparently oblivious that Janitor is undoing her carefully constructed house of Beefhearts [1]. There is a major flaw that at one level [[Captain Beefheart And His Magic Band]] is a redirect and at another level it's used as the artist param in SH (by an admin, no less). Is this edit wanted:[2] or should the page be flagged as NOBOT? All the spaghetti pages Red created need to be flagged NO BOT.
Here is the latest edit [3]!! and SH artist reads Captain Beefheart! LOL ∃cho⚡ierr∀ ( ) 12:28, 2 May 2009 (UTC)
Undoing janitor and calling it updating links don't help Red, Janitor will come back at those Beefheart pages again, Helloooooo?! 12:31, 2 May 2009 (UTC)
@Red: Again, the pagename is the pagename. For displaying the correct album title, we have the header in the infobox. For displaying the correct artist name, we have the "Album by …" line at the top. Which you can modify to your heart's content. Having artists spread across various pages defeats the whole purpose of Implied Redirects. — 6×9 (Talk) 12:35, 2 May 2009 (UTC)
Janitor is enforcing LW:PN, Red is applying her personal aesthetic prefs, the battle of Woman against Machine continues ROTFL ∃cho⚡ierr∀ ( ) 12:37, 2 May 2009 (UTC)
Ok I didn't look back at the history of those pages. But let's not forget one important point here guys. I didn't create the wrongly named pages.  Яєdxx Actions Words 13:01, 2 May 2009 (UTC)
Question: Квартал is really called "Квартал". Does that mean an album page should be "Квартал:Album Title (Year)" rather than "Квартал:Album Title (Year)"? That's not a technical restriction after all. — 6×9 (Talk) 13:28, 2 May 2009 (UTC)
No that is in the realms of LW:PN with regard to artists names and non-latin alphabets  Яєdxx Actions Words 13:53, 2 May 2009 (UTC)
Which still leaves the fact that you ignore several practical (and, yes, also technical) reasons in favour of your aesthetic preference. — 6×9 (Talk) 14:16, 2 May 2009 (UTC)
I don't ignore them. I work within them. Things like capitalisation, different alphabets, technical restrictions, etc. are not the same thing as naming a page as being by one artist when it is in fact by another. I thought I had already clarified my thoughts on this up there ^^.  Яєdxx Actions Words 14:40, 2 May 2009 (UTC)
Hrm. Okay. It appears that we have some items to iron out. There appear to be issues with both points. Redxx appears to have done what I probably would have done as well. But Janitor whacking things around certainly isn't good. I don't know if I'm a fan of artists who changed their name frequently (Neil Young, Zappa, etc.) being on multiple upon multiple of pages, though. ("Now what was the Artist name for Ragged Glory? Was it Neil Young or Neil Young & Crazy Horse or...?") It doesn't seem that we can solve it here. (Well, maybe we could, but...) This seems like a good topic for the Comm. Portal. 6x9, you seem to have a good grasp of the problems involved, so could you start this topic anew in the Comm. Portal and archive this? Thanks!    Kiefer    talk    contribs    admin   14:58, 2 May 2009 (UTC)
Apologies, I only just saw this. I have spent the afternoon amending all the song templates on Captain Beefheart to match the page names so that's now done.
@6 Side note, I'm endeavoring to get rest of lyrics for the Captain and in searching I've come across the dialogue used on Trout Mask. So could you have a look at this page and format it how you think it should be done and then I'll follow this through on others.  Яєdxx Actions Words 19:44, 2 May 2009 (UTC)
I doubt it… Formatting it how I think it should be done would include moving it to the correct pagename (i.e. same artist as artist page). BTW, it just occurred to me that we could have had almost the exact same discussion about the capitalisation rule. "This makes it easier for the API to find the song pages." "Yes, but it's wrong." "With each country having their own cap. rules, we'd end up with a dozen different pages for each song." "Yes, but it's wrong." And so on. — 6×9 (Talk) 22:32, 2 May 2009 (UTC)
Ok Captain Beefheart And The Magic Band and [[Captain Beefheart]]. The only thing is that it seems silly to me to create a second artist page for recordings Captain released with the Magic Band, solely on the basis of the "his" name variation. So the Captain Beefheart And The Magic Band page currently includes all these. But if anything needs to be changed it can be. The only thing that I didn't do, which in this particular instance I probably otherwise have done, is copy over the track-listing of his solo album to the Captain Beefheart And The Magic Band page.
I don't consider that there is a right and wrong in all of this. We just have differing views is all.
I believe that an album page name should reflect the recording artist as it appears on the album cover, not least because this is a simple rule which can be easily understood and interpreted by everyone. Adhering to this method also avoids situations such as this, where conflicts can arise because one set of individuals are deciding to name album pages in a different way, considering that their way is best, more user friendly, etc.
I also think that like MusicBrainz, Discogs, etc. it is important to distinguish between solo works and recordings with other artists by creating individual artist pages upon which to detail these works. Again, using the album cover as the basis for that, not everyone deciding for themselves what they think is best.
What I don't want to have to start doing however (and which has never been a problem up to now), is to have to create separate artist pages solely on the basis of a name variation/change. Like Ron Wood/Ronnie Wood, and indeed Captain Beefheart and the Magic Band and Captain Beefheart and his Magic Band. To me that is just plain daft.
I just wanted to clarify all this with you in case I hadn't made myself clear.  Яєdxx Actions Words 04:49, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
Yes, I got that the very first time around. What you don't seem to get is that it isn't your personal preference vs. mine, it's your personal preference vs. several technical advantages (Implied Redirects, API, botability etc.). I don't even have any personal preference in this matter, we could have number codes like the two sites you just mentioned for all I care. Pagenames don't matter in terms of correct artist names, album or song titles. We have other places to display these. Pagenames do matter in terms of Implied Redirects – they won't work if an artist's work is spread across more than one page (like NY, or like you now apparently did with Don). — 6×9 (Talk) 12:58, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
As I'm typing this I'm wondering whether this discussion (edited perhaps - lol) should be moved to CP as suggested by Kiefer because I really don't agree that it is my personal preference in naming album pages as per album cover..and therefore that it is my personal preference vs. several technical advantages. It would also seem to me that if it now presents problems naming album pages as per album covers, this is in fact a distinct disadvantage not an advantage. I would also suggest that if there is an incompatibility here, then the fault lies in the way these things have been set to operate, not with my understanding of what is correct.
One thought I did have earlier though, was whether this might be resolved via a template? An Alias template. For multiple artist pages we usually type a message in a {{AInfo}} box at the top of the artist pages anyway, to inform of the existence of further albums on another artist page...I haven't gt the foggiest how it would operate, But then I don't perform magic. Often. ;)  Яєdxx Actions Words 17:29, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
You could have made the very same points about the capitalisation rule. — 6×9 (Talk) 17:38, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
Please archive this and start anew on the Community Portal? (6x9, I was going to e-mail you more details about this request, but you don't have e-mail enabled.)(bolded by RD)    Kiefer    talk    contribs    admin   20:27, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

Bluetones & The Bluetones...

Thanks for adding the alternative links at the top but why did you remove the artist field from the The Bluetones header? But not from the Bluetones one? - ezekiel000 19:15, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

I removed it from the first one because it was redundant – it's only meant to be used when the artist name differs from the pagename (like k.d.lang/K.d. Lang, or artists with romanized names). When they are identical it has no effect. It's not wrong per se, but leaving it might give other users the idea that it's required (which it isn't).
The reason I didn't remove it from the other page is simply that I hadn't noticed it :-) — 6×9 (Talk) 19:20, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
Ah right thanks, I didn't realise it wasn't needed. - ezekiel000 19:25, 1 May 2009 (UTC)


I was just looking at {{Covered}} and wondering if it has the facility to accept featured artists.For example,
{{Covered|a1=<<1st artist>>|t1=<<song title>>|a2=<<2nd artist>> Ft=<<3rd artist>>|a4=..}}

Thanks  Ñôīέ2çяȳTalk 23:20, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

It is possible, but we'd need fa parameters for each covering artist, and since one fa parameter isn't always enough, we'd need several (possibly five like in tl:Song), so it would look more like a3fa1=, a3fa2=, ... a5fa1= etc. I think generic addtext1=, addtext2= parameters would be far simpler on the template side of things (and more useful on the user side). — 6×9 (Talk) 23:45, 2 May 2009 (UTC)
Thanks, I feel I could find a use for it here as there are more than a few cover versions with featured artists.  Ñôīέ2çяȳTalk 00:12, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
Personally, I think it's enough that we list the primary artist in the Covered template. The featured artist info is on the linked-to page (should be, anyway), where one would expect more complete information about the song. I don't think the info in the template should be so detailed. It's just meant to be a quick informational blurb so that visitors can go to the cover's page if they wish.    Kiefer    talk    contribs    admin   01:21, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
Please, take a look at Covered list at Bob Dylan:The Times They Are A-Changin'. Initially it was created with intention to remark red links. But later I left it 'as is' just to show some strange 'doubling' effect. Can't understand that I'm doing wrong here...--Senvaikis (talk) 17:58, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
That was me making a mess of copy & paste (again), sorry. Should be fixed now. I noticed that on the song page, the t19 parameter is on the same line as the a7 paramater… Is it the right parameter on the "wrong" line (order doesn't matter really, but it would be a bit confusing) or the wrong parameter on the right line? — 6×9 (Talk) 18:59, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
I'm not sure if it's the correct way to fix it but I added a |t#= entry for each cover, and it seems to look fine now. - ezekiel000 19:08, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
I fixed the template, that's why it looks fine now :-) The t# parameters are only necessary if the covered versions have a different title. (You actually broke two or three links, because you omitted the "The".) — 6×9 (Talk) 19:16, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
Ah right sorry about that. - ezekiel000 19:20, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

If you want to...

You could archive the biggest portion of the Hometown help needed topic in the Community Portal, especially the parts with all of the dissention but keeping the bottom portion with the link to the page Kiefer is creating. --    RainbowDragon    talk    contribs   20:26, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

Dunno if that was wise… the page looks kinda empty and forlorn now… Time to fill it up again! — 6×9 (Talk) 20:41, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
Need a hand? ;)  Яєdxx Actions Words 21:07, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
People always have sh-stuff on their minds. It will fill up before you know it. --    RainbowDragon    talk    contribs   21:19, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

Songs ohne Album

Hi , was mache ich mit Songs ohne Album? Ich bearbeite Thursday und dort sind Songs ohne Album. In der offiziellen Diskografie stehen die noch nicht mal drin. In der diskussions seite steht, man solle sie einem Album zuordnen. Was nun?
lg --AtzeX 05:55, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

Beide Seiten wurden von ÜberBot erstellt, der sich einfach die Texte von anderen Lyricsites grabschte – entsprechend waren jede Menge Fehler darunter. "A Good Song" war in Wirklichkeit "Thursday" von einer ganz anderen Band (nachvollziehbar, wie daraus "Thursday: a good song!" werden konnte). "Shut Your Mouth" war ja schon als Cover gekennzeichnet; da ich nirgendwo einen Hinweis finden konnte, dass Thursday ihn jemals gespielt haben (live möglicherweise), habe ich ihn umgeleitet.
Was häufiger vorkommt sind Songs, die nur live gespielt wurden, aber nie in irgendeiner Form veröffentlicht wurden; in dem Fall kannst du sie unter einen Header wie "Unreleased songs" oder "Non-album tracks" verschieben und entsprechend kennzeichnen; siehe Joe Jackson oder King Crimson als Beispiele. — 6×9 (Talk) 13:40, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

Would you be so kind...

[4]  Яєdxx Actions Words 00:15, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

Ahh..the new alias parameter..(I can't keep up with you!) Thank you.  Яєdxx Actions Words 09:40, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

missing language

La Pafklik:La Povo. Night Owl 04:44, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

btw, this song belongs to Category:Language/Esperanto, but category is hidden.--Senvaikis (talk) 06:01, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
Was my fault. I put a wikipedia flag on the category page (which makes category hidden). All better now :-)  Яєdxx Actions Words 09:48, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
You can set your preferences to display hidden cats. They appear in a second section below the normal ones, so you still have the benefit of less clutter. — 6×9 (Talk) 12:52, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

# in song title?

I noticed that if I use # in a song title everything after it is not included in the page name, how should I go about naming the page? The song is "Untitled #6" here: The Bluetones:Head On A Spike (2006) - ezekiel000 12:20, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

"#" is used for section linking on pages (see the links in the TOC at the top) and therefore can't be used in pagenames. You have to replace it by an equivalent, which in this case would be "Untitled Number 6". See the bottom of LW:PN; all restrictions are listed there. — 6×9 (Talk) 12:49, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
Thanks I've been so caught up in the page templates and what info is needed that I forgot about page naming except for all caps. - ezekiel000 12:55, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

User talk:

I can see a few days block, perhaps, but they really should have been given a {{WarnUser}} for this type of offense. If I'm missing something, e-mail me. Thanks.    Kiefer    talk    contribs    admin   14:51, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

Both edits are clearly vandalism. I think if a user is intentionally violating our rules a warning is unnecessary – they know what they are doing anyway. And the timing of the two edits suggests they weren't going to stop either. I've changed the block to 2 weeks; if you think a warning would be better, you can remove the block. I promise I won't be offended :-) — 6×9 (Talk) 15:10, 6 May 2009 (UTC)
Hey guys, please see this: talk page.    RainbowDragon    talk    contribs   15:48, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

FVZ&TAEElSO&C&The Singing Fat Lady

Ty for moving TPOH. Please see last comment by SC here [5]. NY&CH has same problem. thanks again. Night Owl 00:09, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Passed it on – thanks! — 6×9 (Talk) 00:17, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Akuma on song pages

Sorry for deleting the akuma links but why are they on the song pages? It is a link to the artists page on not the song or album and the same link is already on the relevant artist page. - ezekiel000 17:01, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

The short answer is: we get paid for those :-) I know it's a bit odd to have them on song pages, but at least ÜberBot makes sure to only add them for those songs which Akuma actually sells. — 6×9 (Talk) 17:11, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
Ah right no worries then. - ezekiel000 17:28, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Userboxes - here's another

{{Userboxes/German alphabet}} --    RainbowDragon    talk    contribs   20:03, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Thanks! I was actually aware of it already and even gave notime some unhelpful advice on it, just somehow forgot to add it. I suspect that, once we're done adding romanizations to all artists that need them, I can add several more… — 6×9 (Talk) 20:13, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
Thanks for the improvements to {{Userbox}}, I'll take it for a test drive.  Ñôīέ2çяȳTalk 22:20, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
It's been bugging me for a long time, I was just too lazy to do something about it until now. — 6×9 (Talk) 22:29, 7 May 2009 (UTC)


Dear 6 times 9, What is the point of adding lyric pages for instrumental music? Ball of yarn 18:55, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

See our FAQ, third topic from the bottom up. The short version: (1) so we can provide metadata (credits, links etc.) for the song/track/piece of music, and (2) so that someone who doesn't know it's an instrumental can stop looking for lyrics. — 6×9 (Talk) 19:01, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

Capital letters

Hi, could you please explain to me what is the rule for various languages syntax? I see you have just renamed the song "Nemoj da ideš mojom ulicom" to "Nemoj Da Ideš Mojom Ulicom", which is incorrect in Serbian (and this is a Serbian song). Does this mean English rules apply to all song titles, regardless in which language they were performed and published? Thanks. --Дарко Максимовић 23:34, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

See LW:PN – the fact that different countries have different capitalisation rules is exactly why we capitalise the first letter of each word. — 6×9 (Talk) 23:50, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
Thank you. --Дарко Максимовић 23:34, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

more Instrumentals

Hi, I've got some questions here, about some instrumentals in LW... First, I've checked yours edits in BANZAI (2009) and しょうがない 夢追い人. So, I agree with the instrumentals pages, but what should I do when I have two tracks in the same single, one with vocals, another without vocals (happen in almost every japanese single I checked)? I usually ignore the instrumental version, creating only the one with vocal, but since I saw what was done in Banzai I started to create the instrumentals too... but there are this case, of the same music with and without vocals... Is necessary two pages, one with the lyrics, other with the instrumental? Just one page, with some indication that the song exists in instrumental version? thx for the explanation; wKad 14:58, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Whoops, moving the second one was a mistake on my part. I should have checked first whether there's a non-instrumental version of the same track… Sorry. Anyway, yes, in these cases two pages should be created, one with "(Instrumental)" appended to the pagename. Note that the capitalisation rule holds true for the appendix as well, so it's "(Instrumental)", not "(instrumental)".
Since the appendix isn't part of the "true" track title, you don't have to include it in the TransTitle template. — 6×9 (Talk) 15:09, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
Got it ;) I will make the next edits a little better. Thank you; wKad 13:02, 13 May 2009 (UTC)


Hi, (english/deutsch?)

you moved my translation of the song "All the things she said" by t.A.T.u. to a special subpage. I thought this was only for songs that exist in both languages..? My translation was just a translation for the German users, so it was made to compare the contents and make the text understandable for them, but the song has never been released in German. I thought like ML-Template was used for songs like f. e. Enrique Iglesias' ones, as he sings many songs in English & Spanish, the two languages are connected. I think I got something wrong? What is correct and is there a bot moving translations to subpages? Chris 15:43, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

(Let's keep it in English, others (particularly User:Redxx) might be interested in this as well…)
When songs are officially released in different languages, they mostly also have different titles. In those cases the ML template wouldn't work anyway, since it relies on the various pages having the same name, with only the country code appended.
One problem with putting translations on the same page is, if there are several translations the page will get huge. That's why we only allow it for English translations, and even that has been questioned and might change in the future. Another reason is that many plugins that fetch lyrics from LW don't know how to deal with multiple lyric tags on the same page – some display everything between the first opening and the last closing tag, some display nothing at all…
I doubt this is something a bot can do… too many variables and unknowns, I'd think. You can ask on the Bot Portal, though. — 6×9 (Talk) 15:59, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
OK, so you'd recommend to create extra pages for all the songs I've translated so far (about 20 I think (?)...). If so, could you please have another look at the page and take a look if everything is ok with the code? Because I always use certain songs as a kind of blueprint, and if I copy the errors it's like copy and waste...
And just my opinion on the "plugins": I understand this is a reason, but in my opinion it's their fault if errors appear. Since when does the source behave like the plugins want? ;) Just a matter of two, maybe three lines of sourcecode to define the first two lyrics-tags as marks for lyric instead of relying on the fact there are only 2 of them. Chris 22:28, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
Nothing wrong with the page, though it's pretty basic; that shouldn't matter though, since it's enough for any additional info to be on the original page. (I'm not even sure we really need Song and SongFooter templates; the external links don't make much sense for something that was never released in that form…)
I actually agree about the plugins, and if that were the only reason I'd say bad luck for their users :-) The main reason is really that some popular songs might end up with a dozen translations, and to have them all on the same page would be rather impractical. — 6×9 (Talk) 23:08, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
OK then, what about adding a point "General translationa" to the help? I now realized I missunderstood the helppage, because the example was only for non-english lyrics. Sry for that. No answer @ bot portal so far. I think I'll move them on my own some day. Chris 16:23, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
No worries, the help pages for translations etc. aren't very clear, so mistakes were bound to happen. Actually, I think it's best to bring this topic up in the community portal; because the current system seems to throw songs released in several languages and songs translated by users into the same pot, which can't be right…
Bad luck with the bot portal. I think the problem is that most users with bots are terribly busy at the moment, or otherwise unavailable. — 6×9 (Talk) 16:31, 14 May 2009 (UTC)


[6] might be worth catching this variation of an invalid link. fwiw Night Owl 16:33, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

I could change the detection to catch anything with at least one slash… The ID for their AC/DC page is "acdc" (no slash), so that should work. — 6×9 (Talk) 16:58, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
Damn, now for some reason it also catches those where underscores have been replaced by "%5f"… though with Aqua no longer around it might be safe to put them back… — 6×9 (Talk) 17:30, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
Definitely a good idea though! Now all sorts of horrors come out of the closet, where they've been mercifully hidden for years… (Or this one. — 6×9 (Talk) 17:46, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
I left one horror in the category that totally gasted my flabber, hope you can figure it out. Additionally the detector caught this [7], so it's beyond just "sufficiently advanced". Night Owl 18:58, 12 May 2009 (UTC) PS: and then these [8] editions
Seems like extra pipes in templates still keep coming [9], in addition to extra pipes in SongFooter| from the old days. Night Owl 23:59, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
The good news is that in a template with only named parameters any extra pipes do nothing at all. Still wondering why they were added in the first place, though. (Most images with the old Albumcover/Upload template have them as well…) — 6×9 (Talk) 00:44, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
I see them in what's left of SNLI, harmlessly confusing like PUT LY....Night Owl 01:27, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Oh, Magnificent Template Guru...!

This edit seems to be a good thing (linking to the List, but the brackets are a bit...ugly. If you have time for a little template wizardry, could you help this guy out by prettying this up a bit? (Although eventually isn't there going to be an all-inclusive Other Media template that includes these Video Game appearances?) Many thanks!    Kiefer    talk    contribs    admin   19:47, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

OOoops. Actually it looks like teknomunk got there first. Sorry.    Kiefer    talk    contribs    admin   19:50, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
I was about to type "Too late… TeknoMunk already got there before me." but you got there first too :-) I still think rolling all those feature templates into one would be a good thing…6×9 (Talk) 19:52, 12 May 2009 (UTC)


[10], finding the mercifully hidden Night Owl 21:57, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Would require an edit to SongFooter unfortunately. (I moved the YT stuff to an external template, so I just had to adjust that one, but {{iTunes}} is also used by {{Album}}, so I didn't want to muck around with that…) I'll add it to the pending changes. — 6×9 (Talk) 22:08, 12 May 2009 (UTC)


PNAH shows collaborations, but the category doesn't show on the member pages. Night Owl 17:46, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

A temporary thing I hope. I updated tl:Collab a few minutes before AH and AF. Once the job queue is through they should disappear again. — 6×9 (Talk) 17:49, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

location, location, location

how about related artists being displayed on top of the page (in the middle empty space). Reason: in cases of artist name variations that are on multiple pages (take your pick...), this will allow users to quickly realize what is going on. All Music has a similar set up. Night Owl 02:37, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Filling the whitespace at the top is dangerous, because its amount and location depends on number of albums and length of their titles (and screen resolution). For name variations etc. putting {{Info}} or {{AInfo}} at the top might be better anyway, since it's more visible than a link hidden among third cousins and other less closely related artists. — 6×9 (Talk) 02:48, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
Thanks. Figgers why Main Center it is never filled. I thought related artists was for those who actually worked with each other. Night Owl 03:00, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
Well, yes… I thought you meant those who are basically the same artist (NY/NY&CH and such). — 6×9 (Talk) 03:04, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Trio Of Doom

How does one Name the artist page for them? Last Names by comma, Full names by comma, or Trio Of Doom? Collab template or not? and check the notes [[11]], seems like good qs. no rush. Night Owl 18:47, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

You mean the guitar trio? Looks like they made sure everyone would get first place on the front covers once… Maybe that's why they released a third album at all… Though they didn't do the job properly – Al gets second place twice and Paco third place twice :-) Current solution seems to be the best.
As for JM, I tend to agree with Senv – lots more releases as JM than as JM&BB, it seems. Putting them all on the same page (with {{Caption}}s) would be the simplest solution. — 6×9 (Talk) 20:37, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
agreed on JM. But JM&BB page exists, so all will go to JM, If I understand correctly.
This Trio of Doom [12]. See the last related artist on John McLaughlin page. There are three ways to name the artist page:
  1. John McLaughlin, Jaco Pastorius, Tony Williams
  2. McLaughlin, Pastorius, Williams
  3. Trio Of Doom, which is the album title too.
Night Owl 21:43, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
Ah. Seems to be the same situation as with the other trio. The artists are listed (by full name) on the front cover as well as on the spine, so artist page should have the full names too. Commas (#1 above) are probably the best option – or John McLaughlin • Jaco Pastorius • Tony Williams, as they are listed on the spine, but I think commas are easier to use… — 6×9 (Talk) 22:08, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

Hello, 6x9

I'm new here, and before I upload a cover for Marvelous 3:Math & Other Problems (1997), I would like to ask if LyricWiki has a policy on uploading images? I decided to ask you because I see that you are a recently active editor, and that you are an administrator. --Dylan620 19:42, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

There is – you can read the full version here. The short version is: no bigger than 500×500 px² or 150 kb, and please add an {{Albumcover}} template in the summary field (a dummy template is on the upload page). (That's actually pretty much all there is to it…) — 6×9 (Talk) 19:55, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
So no copyright laws? ;) --Dylan620 20:36, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
The template includes a fair use statement. Either that's sufficient, or no-one found us important enough (yet) to complain. Or found us at all, period. :-) — 6×9 (Talk) 20:40, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
Alright, it's uploaded; File:Mathcover.jpg. --Dylan620 21:02, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
Oops, I forgot to mention the bit about the filename… Preferred format is "artistname - album title.ext". If you follow the "upload cover" link from the album page, the destination filename is filled in automatically. I moved the image you uploaded to File:Marvelous 3 - Math & Other Problems.jpg and also included the template – look at it in edit mode to see how it's done. — 6×9 (Talk) 21:14, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
Ah, OK. Another thing; where can I find a backlog of requests for lyrics? --Dylan620 22:23, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
Hmmm, looks like there is no archive for LyricWiki:Requests… I guess old requests just get deleted eventually. If it's important you could trudge through the page's history :-/ — 6×9 (Talk) 22:34, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
One could also go to any Artist page with which one is familiar and work on any red links that exist.    Kiefer    talk    contribs    admin   17:47, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

One annoying song

Right I've mostly finished the Harvey Danger page but one song. Harvey Danger:Dining Car is as accurate as it's gonna get I think short of the band publishing the lyrics, but I know it's not 100% accurate. Can I certify it anyway? Cause it's bugging me as it's the only thing stoping Harvey Danger going gold and me being able to move fully on to working on Feeder and Counting Crows. - ezekiel000 23:47, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

Should be OK to certify it then, though it's probably a good idea to add a note on the talk page about this. Maybe listing the bits where you aren't sure so you won't get sued later ;-) — 6×9 (Talk) 23:58, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
Thanks will do. - ezekiel000 00:00, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
"Certified" means that the lyrics have been double-checked by the Certifier and the Certifier is stating that the lyrics are as accurate to the recording as possible. Errors could still exist, especially for those particularly mush-mouthed singers, growl-y death metal singers, etc. It's why we say they are Certified not Official. If there is ever a section that you just can't seem to figure out and know that the lyrics aren't "done", then I'd put out a call for help here in the Community Portal talk page and leave the song unCertified, though.    Kiefer    talk    contribs    admin   17:47, 17 May 2009 (UTC)


Verdict..better with? Or without?  Яєdxx Actions Words 12:34, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

Eloquent as always :-) — 6×9 (Talk) 14:36, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
I'll take that as better with then :-)  Яєdxx Actions Words 16:42, 17 May 2009 (UTC)


Spinners was moved to The Spinners, besides the WP article and mb ref etc about the name of the US band, Spinners is a diff band altogether. Night Owl 18:49, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

"Spinners" (no The) seems to be the actual name of the US band – looks like MB and WP were referencing each other again :-) The few album covers I saw on the MB release pages all had "Spinners" only. Discogs has two "Spinners" (both with "The..." as name variation) and an unrelated "The Spinners". You'd think bands might be a bit more careful and inventive when choosing their names… but noooo, we get a dozen artists with the same name on the one hand and the same artist under a dozen names on the other. Do they have any idea how many problems they are causing? — 6×9 (Talk) 19:08, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
dunno why their official website & myspace say "The Spinners", so does iTunes where they sell the stuff Night Owl 19:16, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
and if one wanted to buy tickets to their concert [13] Night Owl 19:20, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
More confusion here, some covers with, some without The. The '78 one says "The Best of Spinners" on the cover but "The Best of The Spinners" underneath. Might as well throw a dice… — 6×9 (Talk) 19:24, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
(re all move requests) Two men say they're Jesus..., Whichever name is more correct, as seen above (spinners), obviously they even misnamed their website! Is discogs more official than the other AF links? Wikipedia stuff is just submissions by regular joes. Allmusic has been in the business long before the internet, iTunes is the commercial agent of the artists and all iTunes artist bios are copyrighted from allmusic. I'd rather you decide, I'm just finding duplicates that need to be unified. fwiw Night Owl 21:36, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
And I'd rather let someone decide who's actually familiar with them :-) allmusic isn't exactly a shining beacon of reliability either, many of their album reviews (and probably biographies as well) are riddled with errors. Though with both itoons & akuma listing them under The, for the sake of botability that's probably best. — 6×9 (Talk) 21:56, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
I don't know the band but the logical choice would be The Spinners if that is what is used on the official site, myspace and iTunes as all of those are controlled by the band themselves they should know what they are called. But then again I could be wrong. - ezekiel000 00:22, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
You're most likely right, and I've already moved them over to The Spinners. Then of course there's this affair, which tells us we can't put too much trust in albumcovers anyway… — 6×9 (Talk) 00:32, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
Again I don't know anything about Devics but that cover just has a stylised E no accent, so it doesn't dispute the name. - ezekiel000 00:38, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
I find it useful to fill all the external refs (myspace, website, discogs, mb, am, itoons, wp) as ...reference for move requests. In the case of the above affair, even the text on their myspace doesn't use accents, so whatever is above the e in album covers is just flourishes to add to the gröupe mÿstique. Almost all the bands I've put a move request for was due to multiple artist pages for one band. It's fair to say that prime concern is easy access by man & machine. Creating/having multiple pages with content for one artist kills artist redirects. Night Owl 01:24, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
Here is a frightening example: Waaah!. Night Owl 16:02, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

The name 6 .. 9

Mention on your user page that you are aware of The Jimi Hendrix Experience:If 6 Was 9. Jidanni 05:22, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

It's actually a reference to something else. — 6×9 (Talk) 12:53, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

another one

check this one:[14] Night Owl 17:05, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

All redirected. Makes me wonder… We have a special page listing all artist redirects – combined with the PrefixIndex there should be some automated way to find such cases, either via yet another special page or via bot… — 6×9 (Talk) 17:27, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
remember artist manifest? ;) then there is the case when artist sits at wrong namespace while the correct name is a redirect see: Ścianka (redirect, should be artist) vs. Scianka (is artist, should be redirect). The REST link on artist page also helps a lot, one artist at a time. The web access vs. api access issues continue. One can write an essay about all this. Night Owl 17:37, 20 May 2009 (UTC)


Do you have access to iTunes? I don't so I'm not sure of the track order for Counting Crows:ITunes Live From SoHo (2008) also I can't seem to find Counting Crows:There Goes Everything with the iTunes link maker although it is listed on wikipedia as an iTunes only bonus track for Counting Crows:Saturday Nights & Sunday Mornings (2008). - ezekiel000 18:43, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Nope, no iTunes access, sorry. Some of the folks who have this page on their watchlist do though, so expect an answer soon :-) — 6×9 (Talk) 18:56, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
If you need other toon lists, post here, I'll notice Night Owl 19:13, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
Thanks for the info, I wonder where those two missing tracks come from? - ezekiel000 19:21, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
If they're pre-order bonus tracks I'd guess iTunes has taken them down on release – can't pre-order an album that's out already… — 6×9 (Talk) 19:33, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
They were I found a review of the album that said that, I didn't realise that iTunes did pre-order bonuses. - ezekiel000 19:37, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
I am looking at the entire CC tracks in itunes, and that track is not there (on either version of the album). It is possible that it was a pre-order and once the album came out, that track is no longer available at all? Weird but possible. Try the CC site/myspace Night Owl 20:30, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

(Unindenting) Soho on iTunes:

URL - id=285428855&s=143441
  1. Blues Run the Game (Live) 4:11 $0.99
  2. Richard Manuel Is Dead (Live) 4:36 Adam Duritz, Dan Vickrey, David Immergluck, Charles Gillingham & Matt Malley $0.99
  3. Angels of the Silences (Live) 3:56 Adam Duritz, Charles Gillingham, Ben Mize, David Bryson, Daniel John Vickery & Matthew Malley $0.99
  4. A Long December (Live) 5:09 Adam Duritz $0.99
  5. Washington Square (Live) 4:47 Adam Duritz $0.99
  6. On Almost Any Sunday Morning (Live) 2:54 Adam Duritz $0.99
  7. When I Dream of Michelangelo (Live) 3:38 Adam Duritz, David Immergluck, Charles Gillingham & Dan Vickrey $0.99
  8. You Can't Count On Me (Live) 3:24 Adam Duritz $0.99
  9. Le ballet d'or (Live) 5:01 Adam Duritz, David Immergluck & Charles Gillingham $0.99
  10. On a Tuesday In Amsterdam Long Ago (Live) 4:37 Adam Duritz $0.99
  11. Rain King (Live) 9:31 Adam Duritz, Charles Gillingham, David Bryson, Steve Bowman & Matthew Malley $0.69

Counting Crows:There Goes Everything is unavailable on all iTunes stories I've tried. --Senvaikis (talk) 20:44, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Thank you but Night Owl already got the info. - ezekiel000 20:50, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

倖田來未 (Koda Kumi) a disaster area, caps, album chrono, song and artist mismatch.... axis of evil . Night Owl 20:48, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

So far I've managed to pretend this page doesn't exist, and I'd really prefer to keep it that way. Maybe we could wait until Teknomunk has some spare time, and ruin his day with it… — 6×9 (Talk) 20:57, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Capitalization of song titles

6x9: you changed the capitalization of the album song titles on the page Sharron_Kraus:Songs_Of_Love_And_Loss_(2004) that I created. As far as I am aware, the Help:FAQ states that "All the characters after the initial letter of each word should match the capitalization that the artist chose". The album's booklet is lying in front of me: the artist does not capitalize "of", "the" and "and" in her album and song titles, i.e. seems to adhere to the usual capitalization policy as stated here: [15]. Can you please revert to the original spelling. Tromba marina 21:10, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

You overlooked the "after" in the sentence you quoted. Please see LW:PN. — 6×9 (Talk) 21:15, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
I mistook "word" for "title" in the sentence quoted. Sorry. Tromba marina 21:21, 21 May 2009 (UTC)


Can you please Refresh special, Orphaned pages? Hank Snow pages I discarded from OS last night are still not showing up. thanks Night Owl 02:17, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Done. #636-#988. — 6×9 (Talk) 02:21, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
Sweet. Can you just refresh one more time! so I can see what else is in there worth reattaching to OSes. Thanks Night Owl 02:28, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
Done II. (Still some ancient Indestructibles in there…) — 6×9 (Talk) 02:32, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
The industructibles can be attached here.  :) Night Owl 02:40, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Changing the starting number?

I remember seeing somewhere on the help pages, how you can start the track numbering at a certain number but I've been searching and I still can't find it. Do you know where it is? This is the page I want the numbers of the bonus tracks to continue the sequence after the header: Josh Doyle:Values And Virtues (2009). Thanks - ezekiel000 14:48, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Done. Unfortunately there's no easier wiki way to do this… — 6×9 (Talk) 15:04, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
Thanks, I don't really understand how the programming behind lyricwiki works but couldn't this be done by giving the first track in the run a number then the rest would carry on from there? - ezekiel000 15:16, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
It's the way MediaWiki works – # and * are really just shortcuts to produce ordered and unordered HTML lists (<OL> and <UL>). I suppose the programmers thought that if someone needed to start a list at >1, they could just use the HTML code directly… Unfortunately that isn't an option on LW, since links are invisible to the API unless the line starts with "#". Hence, the template.
There are a few other, simpler ways to insert lines without interrupting the numbering, like
# Song <br/> Bonus tracks:
# Other Song
# Song
#* Bonus tracks:
# Other Song
but neither of them look too good… — 6×9 (Talk) 15:45, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
ezekiel000, in view of your comments and difficulty finding the info I have now included a note on the help pages about the ordered list template. Thanks for mentioning it.  Яєdxx Actions Words 14:23, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
Thanks - ezekiel000 16:19, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

Country? Origin or current?

Is the country field in the artist pages meant to be their current location or thier country of origin? - ezekiel000 15:22, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Origin. (Or, in the case of persons, birth – wikipedia sometimes lists different places for origin and birth…) It's far from perfect, but it's really the only practical solution. Otherwise we'd have to update artist pages all the time, and probably get a few edit wars as well. Too much hassle, and the info is usually available anyway via the links we provide. — 6×9 (Talk) 15:35, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
ezekiel000, please also see this help page.  Яєdxx Actions Words 14:20, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
Thanks, I should have read the help pages again before asking. - ezekiel000 16:19, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

broken toons?

I just added itoons link for Soft Machine, and that and every other one I try for artists does not work..., but toons links to songs do work. Night Owl 03:30, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

Damn. I thought the link scheme would be the same so I used {{iTunes}} in ArtistFooter (which is also used in Album- and SongFooter), but it has "viewAlbum?" whereas artist links have "viewArtist?". At least it's a quick fix… — 6×9 (Talk) 03:37, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
Before I go ahead and edit AF – does this link work? (Same as current AF link but "Album" replaced with "Artist".) — 6×9 (Talk) 03:40, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
Yes, that one works, it takes me to the Soft Machine page on itoons. Their link scheme allows linking to artist, album page and individual tracks on each album (as you know). Night Owl 03:46, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
…Although the album links produced by the Link Maker are the same as the song links on the same line… — 6×9 (Talk) 03:56, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
That is really the album page link. If one wanted the actual track highlighted on the album page (the ultimate target), then there is a diff link for that (not that it matters):
Soft Machine  --> id=14318355
Third album by Soft Machine     id=273541628&s=143455
Moon In June on Third Album      i=273541829&id=273541628&s=143455
Moon In June on Breda Reactor   i=208560642&id=208560023&s=143455
Night Owl 04:17, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
So it should be safe to omit the "i=###" bit from the parameter in AlbumFooter, right? I suspected it, but didn't want to chance it… — 6×9 (Talk) 13:54, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
I think it's best to hear from Senv on this too. You can safely use the same link for any album for all the tracks on that album. This should make toon links easier. Which brings up the issue of multiple versions of a track and if it is approp/desired to link to each individually from one song page, (as can be done with mb, in a fashion). Night Owl 14:10, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
I'm wondering whether a second, stripped-down version of SongFooter (without all the category stuff) would be feasible… We could add one for each version below the regular SF… Though, with the most recent discussion on the comm. portal, I probably shouldn't suggest anything that might add to the clutter. — 6×9 (Talk) 14:27, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
What just occurred to me is that you can reuse toons link for any song for an entire album (or vice versa). That should raise the number of toond tracks/albums considerably. Is automatic inclusion a possibility? This would be used as the default toons for tracks, then other versions can be manually entered outside the regular SF. Night Owl 14:44, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
Unfortunately, to use a variable defined on page A on page B you'd have to transclude page A on page B. It's possible of course (wrap a span with "display=none" around it and no-one will notice), but I doubt Sean would appreciate the additional strain on the servers… But who knows, when the current testing turns out favourably we might get Semantic in the near future. — 6×9 (Talk) 15:47, 25 May 2009 (UTC)


Is there anyone who speaks Dutch around here? I was hoping someone could certify Counting Crows:Wennen Aan September for me, please. - ezekiel000 23:01, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

Not me, unfortunately. Maybe you'd best ask on the community portal… — 6×9 (Talk) 23:39, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
Thanks for the suggestion, I found someone to check it. - ezekiel000 17:52, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Enrique Iglesias

at the moment I try to order the page of Enrique Iglesias. He's got a lot of songs, and many of them are the same, just other languages. Do you think it'd be sensible to set up a table at the bottom of the artist's page to match the songs? -- Chris 19:55, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Not sure, really… If there are more than a dozen or so, that might be a good solution. Otherwise a simple "(English version of ...)" after each such song might suffice, but if there are too many that would me more of a hindrance than a help.
BTW, the discussion on the community portal about user vs. released translations is still going on, if you'd like to contribute. — 6×9 (Talk) 20:08, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
Done, and I hope I am not banned for inserting those lots of HTML-Source. -- Chris 01:09, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
That's OK, we've seen far worse… — 6×9 (Talk) 15:17, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Category:Pages Needing Artist Identification

Probably needs an info banner. Night Owl 09:22, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

The category, or the pages? For now, you can use {{Banner|text = whatever you think is appropriate}}. — 6×9 (Talk) 15:22, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

When to split

Bruce Springsteen vs. Springsteen And The E Street Band (<--see my note here)...not sure if it's appropriate to waste effort, according to the unfilled AF sources on both pages. iTunes has only 6 song attributed to the BS&E, on compilations. Night Owl 15:31, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

I'm staying out of that. If previous discussions (NY&CH) are anything to go by, any point I make will be "duly noted" and then ignored anyway. — 6×9 (Talk) 15:37, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

FYI: Update: Talk:Bruce Springsteen And The E Street Band#Merge but then again you both know what I think anyway... Яєdxx Actions Words 17:18, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Expired memberships

What I find rather amusing is that everybody who was a member of a band gets to have their duration of participation in the band indicated (see Scorpions etc.), but... which year the band came into being, and when they disbanded (if applicable), has no place to be shown! <end rant>Night Owl 22:26, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Probably because the former can easily added to the members list, while there's no obvious place for the latter in the current/former/founder members framework. Maybe a Framework instead? Though with some bands, a timeline would get pretty tangled & messy. (Renaissance changed their complete line-up twice between second and third album, Soft Machine had some line-up changes with every new album, and Hawkwind's history manages to be almost as messy as their discography…) — 6×9 (Talk) 22:57, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
In the AH there can be startyear & endyear params. Come to think of it, each member can have their own startyear and year param too. Would be nice if a formal definition of what params would be used for band members could be defined by the community. Maybe an idea is to have a Band Members template, While trying to not make the thing too complicated, or too simple! If you had your choice of what bits of data to put on the artist page about the members and related artists, what would be your choice? Years, role, breed of dog... what else? and for related artists too. Or maybe an entire band info template? AM has a relatively sane way of displaying this stuff... Night Owl 23:15, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
If the member's start/stop years are noted, that also indirectly gives the band's start/stop years, as well. I don't really see the need. If it is an optional choice for the "Artist's Box", then I don't have a problem with it, but I'd certainly rather not have it become an essential item for the page, added to the page-ranking, etc. As always, bring it up in the Comm. Portal, though.    Kiefer    talk    contribs    admin   06:21, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
The discussion is open and stalled at the comm portal. This is an exchange of ideas, and if it turns out that a positive exchange is made, it can be distilled or quoted in the CP, else it won't distract anyone :] So now while I have two sets of eyes reading...I am not advocating this RA/Band member info tabulation for ranking purposes, though I have added tl|RA to a few above Green artist pages, almost every artist page with RA is still Green. I just hope once we add the template, others don't come by and remove it. And I hope we can make it useful to everybody who chooses to use it. Band members are related to the band and to each other thru the band, so band members are a subset of related artists. If it is possible to have a collapsible Artist info box, so that in collapsed form it looks as it does now, and in expanded form displays the band info (members, related artists and whatever attributes of them+ genre + labels)..This would be similar to how wikipedia does it, except here it could be collapsed. This will negate the need to have a TOC entry for Labels, genres, RA.
Now if this idea is technically impossible, or has a big hole in it, why bother the comm portal with it?! As for the startyear & endyear, how about the artists? Syd Barrett died in 2007, where on his page can we show that? I think more people are more interested in following the progression of an artist thru his/her peers, rather than thru their record labels, I imagine it is possible to accommodate everybody, by defining what is allowed to be included, by those who want to do so. The example problems I indicated in the comm portal are still silent, so I present a possible solution here. Eric Clapton's or Neil Young's related artists and band memberships, anyone? ;) Night Owl 07:41, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
We all want the best for this site and for it to continue to be the best lyrics site on the web and we all have some great ideas. But I think we got to think more of Mr Average, of what he can understand and be persuaded to do. And something I read a few days ago said that Mr Average is starting to feel pretty put upon with what is already expected of him. For this reason I think, like Kiefer, that this has got to be optional. I also think that we stand a much better chance persuading people to add this information to the page if they don’t need to do a day’s research in order to complete the information. If it were possible I would simply like to add an add text parameter by the side of each artist on bulleted list so that whatever information can be added as the user feels appropriate or has available. The same as it once was. And I’m sorry 6 but I don’t like the info being underneath The connection between band members and related artists is valid since this will avoid duplicate links. I would also like to see the Related Artists/Genres/Labels in TOC.  Яєdxx Actions Words 11:02, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
Where was it stated that RA, or AF params for that matter, was anything but optional?! Neither shows in TOC. I am not sure what it is that your commenting on, doesn't look like anything I said Night Owl 14:35, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
You're right. I was just rambling ;)  Яєdxx Actions Words 14:41, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
I was merely bringing up a small point and giving a reminder that before this item gets implemented, it needs to be brought up in the Comm. Portal. (Which is a step that when admins get talking on their talk pages about something tends to get forgotten, as I've been reminded of twice so far today.) That's all. Nothing else, thanks.  :-]    Kiefer    talk    contribs    admin   18:21, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
Thank you, I guess you don't mind this conversation going on with or without those who want to participate then? LOL Night Owl 18:48, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
See this edit. The removed text is already in distilled form available on the page, it can be displayed better. Feel free to revert it. Night Owl 22:35, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
The only thing that was incorrect was that Group Members should have links to their Artist pages in the Group Members list, and not as Related Artists. In this case, Artist pages for these 3 don't exist, as they haven't had solo careers. Other than that....    Kiefer    talk    contribs    admin   17:42, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

While I'm here....

I just noticed on the PeterLicht page that it doesn't have an English Wikipedia link in the Artist box, and also doesn't have an automatic link in the Footer. (I tried to go to it to see if a WP page had been created for this artist.) I thought that there was going to be a link in the footer to WP if there wasn't a link in the Artist Box. Is the non-English link messing with this or was this never done? I thought this was the compromise that was made between "redundancy" and the do-away-with-it! trains of thought.    Kiefer    talk    contribs    admin   06:21, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

The search link in AF is removed if either of the wp parameters in AH is used. There are two possibilities: (1) If there is no English wp article, the search link is useless anyway. (2) If there is an English wp article, but no link to it in AH, it will still be accessible via the non-English article (the link list in the left column). Either way it's two mouse clicks away.
A far bigger problem are the thousands (if not tens of thousands) of artist pages that have had the wikipedia parameter automatically filled in by using the pagename, without checking whether such a page even exists. I can tell without checking that "|wikipedia = 两只蝴蝶" is such a case. Though we could at least catch some of these by going through all non-Latin fLetter categories… — 6×9 (Talk) 20:19, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
Another (problem?) is there are hundreds (if not thousands) of artist pages whose wikipedia param in AH is very correct, but the article was deleted on wikipedia. At least one good thing about (allmusic/discogs/mb/iTunes) is that they don't delete artist entries. I use the page name to query all sources, without relying on filled params. Additionally I don't delete wp param from AH if the article on wp was deleted, as the next editor/admin can verify by clicking the link and deciding if it's best to keep it or not. It seems that wp links need regular attention from humans.Night Owl 20:36, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
I know that the connection to the English wikipedia may only be a click away, but that assumes that the user knows to look there. (Not every user is Wikipedia knowledgeable.) Also, that doesn't help the user get to a point where it is easy to search Wikipedia for that artist even if there isn't a page set up specifically for them. Can this be corrected next update? Thanks!    Kiefer    talk    contribs    admin   17:42, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
Dunno… shouldn't that be discussed on the comm. portal first? ;-) — 6×9 (Talk) 22:36, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
Maybe I am not understanding the problem, so I did a test. I made a page in Preview mode for Winnipeg Folk Festival, with no wikipedia param in the Artist Header. The page has an automatic wikipedia link in the Footer, and I click it, and it takes me to the Festival page on wikipedia. So I did another test in Preview mode, but named the page Winnipeg Festival Folk, the automatic link in the Footer takes me to the Search result page telling me there is no such article, and I can search further from there on or create the article. What am I missing? What is happening that is not desirable? :) Night Owl 14:15, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
What is undesirable is that it doesn't create that link in the Footer when a non-English Wiki page is linked to in the Header. Which I don't believe was really the intention of the original conversation about what to do with the WP link in the footer. It's not a huge deal, but on the PeterLicht page, I could have gone to the English Wikipedia in a single click. It's also a quick way to check if the page really does exist even if it hasn't been linked to in the Header. I just figured that it's a change that was really meant to exist in the first place that shouldn't take much coding. I don't even expect it right away, just in the next update. If that requires a Comm. Portal discussion, I'll play fair.  :-]    Kiefer    talk    contribs    admin   05:59, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
That would be nice, because I understood it the other way around: direct link present (E or non-E) → search link gone. Cases like PeterLicht are probably exceptions, while there are many artists with only non-E wp articles where the search link is meaningless. Not that it's really a big deal either way… — 6×9 (Talk) 14:09, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
Thanks for the clarifications guys. I hadn't noticed this rare case before. Night Owl 14:47, 1 June 2009 (UTC)


see this artist: 两只蝴蝶, click the ANRI cat. doesn't update. Night Owl 15:58, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

It took as little as changing {Artist to {ArtistFooter – maybe categories don't deal well with template redirects… — 6×9 (Talk) 20:21, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Didn't want to interrupt flow of discussion...

There was discussion about Labels and Genres template, though only on the admin portal. Can you give me link please as I'm having much difficulty finding it.  Яєdxx Actions Words 23:05, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Here, way back when. — 6×9 (Talk) 23:19, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
Thanks dear  Яєdxx Actions Words 23:23, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

it was bound to happen!

Guess Who? Night Owl 08:06, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Or this one. No "Unknown Artist" yet, at least (only "The Unknown Artist" and "Artist Unknown"). — 6×9 (Talk) 14:39, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
Various Artists. That first guy isn't the only clever person out there. ("clever" is meant to be read sarcastically) --WillMak050389 14:41, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
I like the warning (in red) on the rym page about not adding albums. musicbrainz has a similar warning about not using "Variious Artists" as artist. Night Owl 18:26, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
Additionally we have a similar case here on lw, artist named USER disambiguated to USER (Artist), since USER, like Unknown, Unknown Artist or Various Artists is a reserved word. Night Owl 14:52, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
Even more reserved than the others actually, since it defines a mainspace. Now I'm wondering how many "orphaned" userpages there are… — 6×9 (Talk) 14:59, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
I think I just came across the bug previously found by Senv, re: pages not showing in WLH that should. Inspect [16], these pages are not showing there:
  1. Amino Gino
  2. Assassins
  3. Avatar
  4. Badday
  5. Nation Of Prisons
  6. Tapermouth
  7. Tomorrow Or Today Night Owl 15:21, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
They all show here though. Which means they aren't linking to a redirect. — 6×9 (Talk) 15:25, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
They all have USER in SH, and USER is a redir to USER (Artist), no? should they not show in WLH:USER? Night Owl 15:30, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
Look at SH in edit mode. — 6×9 (Talk) 15:33, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
Duh! I guess I should use the alias in all the SH's for that dude then, unless you've done that already...., thanks for the clarification. Night Owl 15:38, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

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