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Collabs within single artist albumsEdit

What's the rule when it comes to having joint credit collaborations (which would require {{SongCollaboration}}) in albums with a single main artist (see Hardwell:United We Are (2015) vs. Tiësto:A Town Called Paradise (2014)). Should SongCollaboration be used (my preference), or should we just use fa= in {{Song}} instead, even though many outside sources such as iTunes and Wikipedia list it as a joint credit? Patzilla777 (talk) 17:33, February 21, 2015 (UTC)

Instrumental album & song pagesEdit

Derived from my harsh discussion with Lichtweber about the deletion of an official instrumental album page with the corresponding song pages, I want to continue the discussion here with input from other members. A only recent [change of the rules] done by Lichtweber forbids the creation of "Lyricless albums, like score albums" pages. I want to know if the other admins ever agreed to the rule change. In case you ever agreed to it, I want to make a point for keeping instrumental album and song pages and will list my reasons:

  • I want to be able to find any officially released song (even if it is an instrumental) of an artist on this wiki (the utopian vision).
  • Even instrumental albums are important works, see for example Brian Eno:Ambient 1: Music For Airports (1978) - why would you want to delete such albums?
  • Experts / music lovers of an artist will come the our wiki to make it the most complete. It gets more attractive the more complete the artist pages are.
  • They don't do harm to you
  • To avoid dumping all those songs in the "Other Songs" section, we need a frame to list them -> Album pages get created, even instrumental only

Reasons for keeping instrumental song pages (even if they don't contain lyrics <-> LyricWikia):

  • Users of the wiki and user/programs of the API get a clear response if looking for the song lyrics:
    • Song page is available
      • Retrieve lyrics / instrumental tag
      • Read meta data from song header / footer, credits, trivia, etc...
    • Song page is not (yet) available: Feel free to add
    • The current approach: Song page not available / got deleted, album page deleted:
      • State of uncertainty (Why ain't it there? Simply not added yet or already deleted...). Lichtweber gave a good example of a page which got vandalized by him in my opinion: LyricWiki:Lists/Final Fantasy - It's not even possible now to see the track lists of the deleted albums. The short remark "Please note that completely lyricless albums will not be detailed here" is no help for API users.
      • No meta data linking (think: covered, sampled, featured (in)) from & to other song pages possible
  • Some as instrumental tagged songs contain lyrics / samples, yet nobody ever listened closely to them. They might turn into lyricful songs. See for example my work at Thomas Bergersen:Sun (2014), other lyric sites still list every song as instrumental...
  • Did I mention that they don't do harm to you?

Disadvantage:

  • Initial higher maintenance of pages (add the album / song pages, add meta data (though mostly bots work)), but once created, it gets far lower (The "cleanup" of instrumentals and fighting of users trying to re-add lyrics is gone)
  • "B-but my diskspace / bandwith..." can not be a reason, I'm sorry

As you can see I have an inclusionist viewpoint Wikipedia16, because it is the very nature of Wikis to collaboratively edit articles and improve them iterative. I want to keep this spirit going here. --Fassbrause (talk) 11:14, March 13, 2015 (UTC)

Lyrically Edit

Hello. I use the Lyrically app, and am wondering how it syncs with the lyrics on this wiki? I've come across lyrics in the app from time to time which are not available, but when I look in the web site, it is on there.

An example is the artist Peter Furler. His On Fire album is on this wiki, but the app says "There is no info for this album".

Thanks for any help.

Estiffler (talk) 00:49, August 1, 2015 (UTC)

Non-Latin artistsEdit

After discussing the matter with the other admins, we decided to get rid of the "Native (Romanized)" pagenaming rule for non-Latin artist names. This should make things simpler, less ambiguous and less ugly. Of course it will take a while until all affected pages are moved and cleaned up.

Please note that, for artists and albums, the |roman parameter should still be used to indicate romanized name/title, to improve searchability. — 6×9 (Talk) 11:51, October 18, 2015 (UTC)

Sounds good! I never understood that anomaly in the first place and I think most beginners neither Smile Greetings, --Fassbrause (talk) 19:09, October 18, 2015 (UTC)
So for example, 倉木麻衣 (Mai Kuraki) would be renamed to 倉木麻衣 only?? — Steffy13 (Talk) 10:52, October 22, 2015 (UTC)
That's how I understood the change Smile. See the corresponding updated help page. Greetings, --Fassbrause (talk) 12:03, October 22, 2015 (UTC)

> Hey there! Start getting comfy 'cause this is looong and a bit confusing (at least for me). Even though I tried it to make it brief, I couldn't Cry. So...

I was discussing with Lichtweber and EchoSierra about how the pagenaming for non-Latin artists should be. It was said before that the naming should go according to how the artist's name was on their albums, but then appeared some doubts about it. In some cases, the albums had the romanized name on them, but on other media (such as iTunes, Youtube, official charts...) appears their non-Romanized name. So we started discussing which name should be prioritized: the one the artist put on their albums' covers or the one put on their sales pages and other media.

Aside from that, supposing we follow the cover-name rule, there are some complications about it too:

These are the main problems with the covername-rule. Using one or another would solve partially the problem, but it won't be as accurate. On one side, non-Latin names may be more easy to find (and easier to edit too, truth be told :P), but I'm still a bit doubtful if it's the best way to do it because aside from the cover, most of pages list their native names.

So, I'm asking what do you think about this? Should we use the cover name? Their non-Latin name? The Latin name? One of them even if it varies from album to album? A different one depending on the album? Both? None XD? Abuse of redirects? I'm very confused, really Unsure I would prefer if we could avoid having a bunch of exceptions and special cases, it's much easier a one rule XD.

Thank you for your time and patience Grin

P.D.: Most of examples are Japanese because I'm more familiarized with Japanese artists and music, but this also affects other non-Latin artists, such as Taiwanese, Russian, Greek, Arabic, etc etc.....
~Steffy13~ > talk > contribs 18:24, October 23, 2015 (UTC)

  • This issue is not exclusively a matter of confusion by non roman artists, plenty English speaking artists use different names on different releases, please see Laveerre; and for now please do not emulate what you see on that page (different namespaces for each alias of the artist), that practice is in the twilight zone.
  • The reason (imho) for using name per (majority of past) covers by the artist is that it's a historical milestone that unlike fb/homepage/youtube titles etc. cannot be retroactively changed.
  • We have artist redirects for name variations, aliases etc.
  • A matter that has not yet been policified (afaik) but we have been following as a best practice is the One artist, one page practice, so creating multiple pages for the same artist is out of the question (and there are still pages that remain to be merged (see Index AI)'s aliases in ArtistInfo section.
  • For artists that have used other titles but now are using yet another title 上木彩矢 (Aya Kamiki), we use the most recent title, again, not a matter exclusive to CJK artists.
  • Majority of CJK pages will be moved to their native page name.
  • For the pages that you are working on, and the artist has used a mix of native and romanized artist title over the years, I'd suggest making a list of such artists until a clear resolution and policy has been defined.
  • For the case of artists that use both native and romanized like كیوسك I kept the roman artist title for songs/albums artist pages, and used DISPLAYTITLE in persian. No way anybody will have a hard time finding the band!
  • lw being a reflection of the real world, no matter what us admins try to streamline by policifying, there will be exceptions and contentious cases like this one... or artist collab/album collab! and certainly this discussion needs more input. --ES (talk) 20:07, October 30, 2015 (UTC)

Appeal to adepts of African languagesEdit

Please, help me to clean finally the Category:Songs Needing Language Identification, containing atm 4 songs by Deep Forest, - all from their album Deep Africa (2013).
Baie dankie by voorbaat! --Senvaikis (talk) 08:35, November 13, 2015 (UTC)

Should song lyrics contain marks where guitar solos start?Edit

I wonder if lyrics should contain marks like "Solo (name of guitar player)"?
If this info is really needed, maybe there should be some kind of template?
--OlenJ (talk) 12:42, December 25, 2015 (UTC)
See Help:Contents/Editing/Formatting/Songs#Lyrics: Please do not include notation like "Chorus", "Bridge" or "Guitar solo", chords or time codes in the lyrics.6×9 (Talk) 23:20, December 25, 2015 (UTC)

{{SongHeader}}Edit

I've been overhauling our old {{Song}} template to make use of the dpl extension. The result should be (mostly) easier to use, but also comes with a few radical changes (some of them visual):

  • song, romanizedSong (now roman) and language parameters are moved from Footer to Header
  • song title is displayed in a title bar (like Album- and ArtistHeader; always seemed like a waste to have it only show in the external links)
  • album parameters now take the full pagename (no more need for albumartist parameters, no more different behaviour for type=compilation/soundtrack)
  • allows for multiple artists, so it will replace {{SongCollaboration}} as well

All changes are described in the new template's documentation. Any criticism, feature request, warning of potential problems or layout improvement is welcome. I will soon (sometime next month, I hope) start converting all SongCollaboration instances; if no major problems appear, I'll then move on to the "normal" song template. — 6×9 (Talk) 09:30, January 30, 2016 (UTC)

Oh yes, nice work as always! My only minor issue for now would be to increase the regular featured artist count to say maybe 5, as certain genres like Hip Hop tend to favor more fa's. And well, how about showing the actual flag icon of a language (where possible) instead of the generic flag icon? That should be more intuitive for normal users. Greetings, --Fassbrause (talk) 13:51, January 30, 2016 (UTC)
  • fa: I'd like to unclutter the header, hence the |featured parameter in CreditBox for > 3 artists. But if the majority is for 5 fas, I'm willing to be overruled.
    • Another (separate) issue is whether to keep autolinking fas – the majority probably has no solo releases and therefore will stay red, and many probably link to the wrong artist page.
  • Flags: That was my first idea too, but flags signify nations, not languages. Do we use the UK or the US flag for English? Either way, the Irish (Republic, not Northern) might feel left out. Spanish is spoken in many countries other than Spain, same for Portuguese (though at least we have a separate cat for br-pt). — 6×9 (Talk) 14:25, January 30, 2016 (UTC)
  • I don't think it would add to much clutter as long as line breaks are kept in the header (maybe it would be the perfect time to make it a rule and write it down in the docs? After all, it would comply with artist page headers and song page footers). Though I don't now if that is compatible with the bots.
    I could very much live without autolinking of fas (for your reasons mentioned) - as long as it is easy to do it manually.
  • Yes, you are right flags don't cut it either. How about simply writing out the lang name or using the short ISO codes? Or maybe we can come up with a better generic symbol, maybe the language icon?. It's just... as a simple user I wouldn't expect a language category behind the icon. That's all I wanna convey here Smile. --Fassbrause (talk) 15:03, January 30, 2016 (UTC)
  • I meant clutter on the saved page, not in the source. Imagine a song with 3 albums and 5 fas – that's a lot of commas.
  • Having text next to the star icon would look weird. The generic language icon hasn't really caught on, though it's been around since 2011 (not that its predecessor fared any better), so I'm not sure it'll be any more recognizable. The multiflag icon OTOH is used by our {{NoLang}} and {{TranslatedSong}} templates (where the generic icon would look too bland/boring). — 6×9 (Talk) 20:35, February 1, 2016 (UTC)
  • Flags: i took the liberty creating a multilingual icon: Icon - Multilingual. What do you think of it? Can we use this instead of the old flags?  · Lichtweber talk service  18:59, February 3, 2016 (UTC)
For SH I'd prefer something simpler, like this: Lang – remember it has to look good at 15-20px. — 6×9 (Talk) 21:26, February 3, 2016 (UTC)

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