User talk:Kiefer/Archive 2007

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Contents 1 Particle Man and such 2 Suggestions Pages 3 Codes are confusing 4 Hey dude, 5 Capitalization 6 Soundtracks Part Deux 7 Re: idonthack 8 Artist Pages 9 instrumental template 10 Info 11 Different Album Versions 12 Placebo Bonus Cd 13 Ad layouts 14 Bon Jovi vs Jon Bon Jovi vs Jon Bongiovi 15 New Spambot 16 Wiki-Lyrics Script 17 Monsters in the Morning 18 Category:Requests For Deletion 19 User UberBot 20 Blocked by spam filter 21 Are these comment types by contributors within LW standards? 22 New Releases 23 Wir sind Helden 24 Bob Dylan John Wesley Harding Album 25 autogenerator 26 Thanks 27 Orphans 28 LyricWiki Challenge - Facebook app 29 BEDlight 30 Artist categories 31 Capitalisation 32 Gwen Stefani:Breakin' Up 33 Thanks! 34 ALready over 35 Redirecting 36 Moving stuff 37 Sorry 38 Styx and such 39 Two Small Issues 40 Heads up 41 Anonymous edits to High School Musical 42 ???!!!= 43 Matchbox 20 and Tabitha's Secret= 44 sorting 45 Capitalization 46 accents 47 Editing buttons 48 maybe you can help : article/link 49 Something screwed up 50 Redirect? 51 just a question 52 Matchbox 20, Other Songs 53 Mangled Artist Characters? 54 By the Way, Thanks 55 Signature 56 Sum 41 Other Songs 57 Justin Timberlake 58 Do you remember where this is? 59 Need your opinion... 60 Page names 61 help again 62 Re: Janitor 63 Internal link to redirect without redirection 64 Possible new project... 65 Take one off your to-do list... 66 Problems with '/' Character 67 Linkin Park:In Pieces 68 Special signatures 69 Depswa:Other Songs 70 A Wilhelm Scream:The Horse 71 Re: Alicia Keys 72 In Regards to User talk:Nympholept 73 Emergency 74 Desparate Plea 75 About Joe Strummer And The Mescaleros:Coma Girl 76 Agreement 77 What does "Part-Time Christian" mean? 78 About John Denver album 79 Re: Other Songs template 80 About Chicago:Look Away 81 Album Length 82 Deletion Vs. Redirection 83 Forgotten so quickly...? 84 Various Artists 85 Why are not real the Article Diego Grez? 86 Oops... 87 GonzaloC 88 RE: Moved Page 89 You'll love this...

[edit] Particle Man and such

I haven't actually been to this site in a while prior to today; an anonymous fellow came along to TMBW and tipped us off on Talk:Main Page. I'm registered here now, though, so I'll try to lend a hand if I see one is needed. Cool site. :) -CapitalQ 09:26, 9 March 2007 (EST)

Rock on!

CapitalQ: Thanks for joining, This Might Be A Wiki is pretty sweet... glad to have you :)

Kiefer: Thanks for reaching out to the TMBW guys, this will be fun and soon we should have a VERY vibrant area of the site around TMBG and their side-projects! (Thanks for filling me in too... lately it's gotten to be very late at night before I get on, so I might have missed it)

-Sean Colombo 16:49, 9 March 2007 (EST)

[edit] Suggestions Pages

Kiefer said that I added a suggestions page on "Five For Fighting". I just wanted to tell him that I didnt (24.129.119.12 21:25, 17 May 2007 (EDT)

Im sorry, I did. I really didnt know wat u were talking about. Thanks for showing me that example. I just thought that it would make finding a song a lot easier. Thanks,(24.129.119.12 11:25, 28 May 2007 (EDT)

[edit] Codes are confusing

I know you're still on (hopefully).. can you fresh me on re-directs? I'm not sure if I'm doing it right.. #REDIRECT [[Disney:Cheetah_Sisters_(Correct)]] on the pages that needs to be re-directed from "other songs". Is that correct? Even after the change, when I go back to the link, it shows the original page. -- Khluvr621 23:42, 13 March 2007 (EDT)

thanks :) -- Khluvr621 23:58, 13 March 2007 (EDT)

Oops. The only reason I did those was because when I searched for those particular movie names via LyricWiki, I noticed that those specific pages already had the entire soundtrack and all the songs under that "album" name. Those song pages are not on within the "Disney" name. Plus I thought it would be good to use up the existing soundtracks pages; as all of those are "splits". -- Khluvr621 15:31, 16 March 2007 (EDT)

Please don't yell at me! (hides).. I did a little tweaking on the Disney page. Teknomunk said it'd be a good idea to separate the "Disney Channel" related aside from the "Disney Movies", since it's just going to expand more. I also had a talk with my husband on how I can do this, and researching the Disney links via Wikipedia, I have discovered that it's merely impossible to have everything on that one page (trust me, there's alot). So my best bet was to categorize it, using a similar format that Wikipedia uses. AND... with this format, anyone can take sections of the page (for example, Channel Movies and Theme Songs; if anything gets too big) and place it onto another page & put a link between both pages (the Disney and the new one). As of this note, all of the animated and non-English movie albums has been updated with the song/song links that appeared on the old format - I'll get to the rest over the weekend and next week. (Yes I admit, I acted like a blonde... tonight was the first time I saw the Jamaican Bobsled Chant, which respectively goes to the movie "Cool Runnings" (no lie, the movie is a "live-action" Disney film)). Thank you for the advice on soundtracks -- Khluvr621 00:22, 17 March 2007 (EDT)

I saw that Khluvr621 and it looks rather good. This next week is my spring break so I will get to work on the non-english lyrics soon (probably tomorrow morning/afternoon).

- teknomunk (talk,E) 00:29, 17 March 2007 (EDT)

By the way, Cool Runnings is an awesome movie.

The disambiguation pages seems like a better idea. It was just an idea to "clean" it up. I didn't touch the "Other Songs" in a while, so if it were to be organized by movies,... I just thought of that (vertical & horizontal). Anyone can clean it or organize it however they want. -- Khluvr621 10:40, 17 March 2007 (EDT)

Maybe this is an idea? [Testing]. I don't know how "word" the re-direct; I know you want examples, but would you like to see the rest on one entirely new page, or split up even more? Ok, back to Wanted Pages. Gotta kill those red links -- Khluvr621 13:37, 18 March 2007 (EDT)

Anything takes a lot of experimenting. I finally decided on that particular disambiguation "page" last night, so that I can break up the *entire* Disney company into smaller pieces. Different companies getting sold to Disney, etc; that's where the affiliates on the bottom comes in (just a little F.Y.I). For the Disney Channel, I hope it's okay with you on how the movies are on one side; the show themes are on the other. I admit, but, I did take the .div code from Teknomunk's userpage to split the page up. As far as information flows, yes it's going to take time, but eventually the "Other Songs" will get shorter. -- Khluvr621 13:29, 29 March 2007 (EDT)

[edit] Hey dude,

Check this out if you have a sec, and let me know your thoughts. :-/
Thanks,
- Sean Colombo 22:45, 18 March 2007 (EDT)

[edit] Capitalization

Hi, um the actual name is all lower case. I didn't quite understand the capitalization info page, does it mean regardless of however the artist spells their stage name you want it all caps? Aussie grl rulz 09:19, 21 March 2007 (EDT)

[edit] Soundtracks Part Deux

I am also interested in posting Soundtracks (and Compilations) where there are more than one artist. I see that Bea put up Romeo and Juliet. I put up Honeymoon in Vegas under Various Artists (of which I think I did a good job <pat myself on back>) and I agree, that can get messy real quick. Have you guys figured a way around this? There are MANY songs that ONLY exist on Soundtracks and Compilations, so this would be a great addition, instead of making them orphans.

BTW, I think you should have a Category or Genre for strictly Compilations. Soundtracks could fall into this, but so could Tribute albums, NOW, etc.

I love this place, it is now my new obsession! OK Time to go back to work!
--JeffASaul 14:04, 21 March 2007 (EDT)

[edit] Re: idonthack

Wow, I didn't even notice I was submitting duplicate pages. My player was set to do it all automatically. I've now told it to prompt me before it does anything, and I'm going through my own history fixing anything that looks weird. Thanks for letting me know. -- idonthack

[edit] Artist Pages

Is there a certain template I can use for artist pages? Anomy 23:38, 29 March 2007 (EDT)

[edit] instrumental template

ah, now I know... --Speckmade 23:34, 30 March 2007 (EDT)

[edit] Info

Hey, thanks for the info. I fixed the Einherjer page as far as capitalization goes, I'll get around to making the actual lyric pages look nicer as well as creating album pages tomorrow probably. One thing I was wondering about, though, is I was able to upload the Nile album covers just fine, but when I tried to do it for Einherjer it tells me "'.jpg' is not a recommended image file format." Weird. Lupis 00:16, 31 March 2007 (EDT)

[edit] Different Album Versions

What is the best way to deal with albums with different tracks on different versions? The case in point is Bonzo Dog Band:Tadpoles which in it's original 1969 form had the Paul McCartney produced Urban Spaceman as track 6 (for example [1] or the packaged "The Outro: Tadpoles/Keynsham" multi CD on Amazon) On the 1993 US CD it had a completly different track 6. hawtin 23:45, 3 April 2007 (BST)

Okay. According to this, I'm The Urban Spaceman was originally on the US version of The Doughnut in Granny's Greenhouse, which was released as Urban Spaceman, and was on the UK version of Tadpoles, which was later re-released as I'm the Urban Spaceman. So, hmmmm....

This is a tough one. I guess the UK versions are the originals, so the listings should go with them, with the US changes listed afterwards with a notation. I had the US version and didn't know there was a different UK version. My apologies. Let's see what I can do to correct the page now. --Kiefer 21:34, 3 April 2007 (EDT)

[edit] Placebo Bonus Cd

Hi Kiefer! Thank you very much for your help in all the articles I have created/edited. Since the bonus Disc of Sleeping with ghosts by Placebo consists of Covers, either we should add the parenthesis to all of the tracks or put them all away. I don't see the sense in keeping just the Sinead O'Connor note and not the others :-] (sorry for my "spaghetti-English") --Eyesglare 07:36, 9 April 2007 (EDT)

Adding them all would be great! If all an artist did were covers, I wouldn't suggest doing that, but since the album is an all-covers bonus, then I don't think it will be overwhelming to have that information added. Thanks for clarification on your edit. --Kiefer 07:49, 9 April 2007 (EDT)

Ok, I'll do that! At first I didn't know what to do because in the song page I had already added "this is a cover of...by..." and thought the parenthesis were superfluous, but it's definitely better to add them, I'll do as you suggested, thanks :-]--Eyesglare 07:55, 9 April 2007 (EDT)

[edit] Ad layouts

Hiya... If you have a sec, I'm started messing around with the possible Ad Layouts and could use some feedback.
Thanks,
-Sean Colombo 03:46, 11 April 2007 (EDT)

[edit] Bon Jovi vs Jon Bon Jovi vs Jon Bongiovi

I need your help. All of the songs on the page for Bon Jovi are attributed to Jon Bon Jovi (the lead singer). Jon had two solo albums, Blaze of Glory and Destination Anywhere, only these should be attributed to him. All of the others should be by Bon Jovi except Jon Bongiovi - The Power Station Years (this is a completely different person). Consequently, all of the Bon Jovi songs and JBJ songs also have pages under Bon Jovi as orphans. The actual songs on the page are correct to the albums. What's the best way to get this whole thing proper? Thanks. Jeff 19:22, 14 April 2007 (EDT)

WOW!!! That is quite a mess. Usually the way to go would be to have everything moved to the correct artist with a bot, but as you mentioned, most is incorrect, but some is correct. Unfortunately, that means that it is a step-by-step process, unfortunately.

Here's what I would do:

1) Open the Bon Jovi page in two windows. (So that during #4 you can compare them.)

2) Edit one of the open pages so that each of the incorrect links say "Bon Jovi" instead of "Jon Bon Jovi"

3) Preview

4) Compare the two pages, side by side. If there are any links that have turned to red (meaning that there is a Jon Bon Jovi page for that song, but not one for Bon Jovi), open that lyrics page and move it to "Bon Jovi". (Now for the tedious part....)

5) Open each of the "Jon Bon Jovi" links that are unnecessary and turn them into a REDIRECT (#REDIRECT [[Bon Jovi:Song Title]]).

6) Once that is done, then use the open and corrected page to copy and paste onto the album pages (which likely had to be moved) so that they have correct links, too.

7) Now, the Jon Bon Jovi page has to be corrected by having the Bon Jovi albums deleted and vice-versa.

8) Both pages should have a "Related Artists" section after the Other Songs with links to the other page and then save them.

9) If you really wanted to be obsessive, then open up the Orphan pages and correct those links or add them to the Other Songs sections. Bon Jovi's is currently at [2].

I think that's it. Sounds like a good 2-3 hour job. (Which probably means it'll take at least 4 hours.  :-] ) If it sounds too daunting, I can always put it on my to-do list. That's a good find (and by that I mean a real mess that really needs cleaning up. Just let me know.

I was pretty much afraid it would be like that. I have no problem doing that, I just wanted to check for an automated route first. Jeff 14:24, 16 April 2007 (EDT)

The Jon Bongiovi album is one of Jon Bon Jovi's albums, so that should be on the Jon Bon Jovi page, BTW.

REALLY! I could not find reference to this on Bon Jovi's website. I thought it was a completely different person. No rpoblem, it will be part of his solo stuff. Jeff 14:24, 16 April 2007 (EDT)

Good luck! --Kiefer 23:14, 14 April 2007 (EDT)

Thanks for the support. Yes I have taken on some daunting tasks, it makes me feel like I really am contributing. Plus, I like to switch every once in a while. What do you think of what I did with the Alison Krauss and Jimmy Buffett pages.

Based on Bon Jovi, I am thinking I should separate Alison Krauss and Alison Krauss & Union Station pages separating Solo from Group, which at this point is actually relatively easy.

As for Jimmy Buffett, I sort of modeled it after Rolling Stones, in that I separated by decade (although that one was separated in to different pages, while mine just shows album name and cover and then the songs are on the specific album page. I may have gone overboard with this artist though, turining into a complete discography and including ALL his live albums, even though 99% of the lyrics are the same. Thanks! Jeff 17:02, 17 April 2007 (EDT)

[edit] New Spambot

I'm sure you have noticed this already, but there seems to be a new bot spamming the site. It looks to be very aggressive with about 7 pages spammed in the last 15-20 minutes. Just keep an eye out for this.

- teknomunk (talk,E) 23:44, 27 April 2007 (EDT)

[edit] Wiki-Lyrics Script

Hi, I've noted that you added lyrics tags to an instrumental song created by WL... Is that the current correct way to do it? I'm guessing yes, which leads me to the following request: please, try to keep me updated with the formatting changes on the site. I check on the generated pages from time to time to verify they are not adding trash, but I'm not here often enough to notice every change to the site standards. It is my intention though to create pages as correctly as possible, so any hint on things that could be fixed would be very much appreciated. --Attendant 14:31, 29 April 2007 (EDT) (Wiki-Lyrics script developer)

[edit] Monsters in the Morning

This is a message for all people who don't know who the Monsters in the Morning are. The Monsters are an American band based in Orlando, Florida. They currently have a radio show called Real Radio 104.1. This can be heard worldwide on the official Monsters website. For more information, visit their website or see the Monsters in the Morning Wikipedia page. — The preceding unsigned comment was added by 85.12.68.1 (talk).

[edit] Category:Requests For Deletion

I've gotten behind on deletion requests. When you have time, would you mind helping out? At least it's a lot better than deleting spam.
- teknomunk (talk,E) 19:59, 2 May 2007 (EDT)

Thanks for the help.

- teknomunk (talk,E) 00:40, 3 May 2007 (EDT)

No problem -- I owe ya!  :) --Kiefer 00:42, 3 May 2007 (EDT)

[edit] User UberBot

Hi, thanks for be ready for help. As I have almost all of Alice Cooper records and existed a lot of "holes" in song listing I listed the songs. I was surprised 'cause a lot of them, even unreleased songs appeared in "blue", as with lyrics. I saw a few and there's no lyrics but only a line created by User UberBot. I think this is automatic but like that we don't know wich songs have "real" lyrics. Examples can be seen in Album "Pretties For You" and the box "The Life and Crimes Of...". Is there any way to turn it off or the lyrics generated by this user are seen by anyone? I think I'll don't have too much problems editing as I'm used to Wikipedia. --Ludovico 05:43, 7 May 2007 (EDT)

[edit] Blocked by spam filter

Kiefer,

I tried to add a bunch of Melvins albums to the artist page, but got blocked when I tried to save my edits. I think the spam filter is hanging on the album name Hostile "Ambee-ent" (real name is that famous sleeping pill) Takeover. Can you tell me what I need to do to add this album? Thanks. boxarocks 20:34, 9 May 2007 (EDT)

[edit] Are these comment types by contributors within LW standards?

Hi. Could you check out this page here, since I've seen you in the history list therefore thought that you might have some knowledge and memory of the page. Thanks. - BryghtShadow 06:54, 10 May 2007 (EDT)

Thanks for the notice. No, those comments aren't within LW standards. Editorializing isn't allowed on Artist, Album, or Song pages. ----Kiefer <img src="/images/5/58/KieferE.jpg" alt="Esperanza" /> <img src="/images/f/f9/KieferTalk.jpg" alt="Talk!" /> 07:41, 10 May 2007 (EDT)

Hmmm... Thought so, but I just needed confirmation. I believe that confirming a 'thought so' is always good. Well, if I find something similar to this that hasn't been under the eyes of a admin, I'll let the admins know. ;) - BryghtShadow 07:46, 10 May 2007 (EDT)

[edit] New Releases

Great idea adding New Releases to the Current Events page! Maybe there is some way a bot can do that for you? (Or at least automated, like the iTunes on the Main Page).

--Jeff Saul (talk,contrib,E) 09:57, 21 May 2007 (EDT)

If I knew how to "bot," perhaps. I'm basically getting the info from the Sunday Best Buy flyer and from Amazon.com. Making it fit our formatting might be a bit tricky, though. Especially since Amazon likes adding add-ons to their titles. It's easy enough to copy. I'll probably add the format to my personal copy-and-paste cheatsheet that I keep open. If there's anything you see (I'm also scanning Google News' Entertainment section) feel free to add it in to the Music News, by the way! You're an admin, so you're not blocked from editing the page. ----Kiefer <img src="/images/5/58/KieferE.jpg" alt="Esperanza" /> <img src="/images/f/f9/KieferTalk.jpg" alt="Talk!" /> 10:53, 21 May 2007 (EDT)

[edit] Wir sind Helden

Hi,
the correct spelling for Wir sind Helden is with a lowercase "s" for "sind". They are a German band, and in German every noun is capitalized, but other words are not - even in titles etc. The same goes for other German band names and album/song titles.
cf the album cover for Von hier an blind, where it's spelled "Wir sind Helden".:

--Salocin 09:00, 3 June 2007 (EDT)

[edit] Bob Dylan John Wesley Harding Album

Hi, Thanks for the welcome. The release date of this album needs changing to 1968, I tried to do it but it showed up as a red link on my contributions, so I reverted. Can you please tell me how to change it? Thanks, Lion King 21:23, 4 June 2007 (EDT)

Just changing the link is not enough. You need to take a few steps to change the release date:

• Go to the album page and click "What links here" in the toolbox
• On all the pages in the list, change the link to the new album page (it shows up in red)
• Now go to the album page and rename it using the move button at the top
• Finally, you can go to the old album page (click the link on the new one where it says Redirected from...) and request {{deletion}} in case the old name was really wrong.

If you can't do it or you're too afraid to make mistakes (you shouldn't be actually, just be bold :)) just leave a message on my talk page (or below this message, and add a {{helpme}} tag), and I'll help you with it. --Mischko <img src="/images/3/31/Talkicon.png" alt="Talk to me" /> <img src="/images/1/1e/EsperanzaIcon.png" alt="Esperanza Member" /> 11:43, 5 June 2007 (EDT)

Thanks, Mischko for answering while I was away. Perfect answer. I hope everything worked out! ----Kiefer <img src="/images/5/58/KieferE.jpg" alt="Esperanza" /> <img src="/images/f/f9/KieferTalk.jpg" alt="Talk!" /> 15:03, 8 June 2007 (EDT)

Thanks, and you're welcome :)

We worked it out, the move wasn't necessary after all :) --Mischko <img src="/images/3/31/Talkicon.png" alt="Talk to me" /> <img src="/images/1/1e/EsperanzaIcon.png" alt="Esperanza Member" /> 16:26, 8 June 2007 (EDT)

PS welcome back

[edit] autogenerator

Oh I'm sorry! I'll try to pay more attention to the autogenerator in future. Thanks for telling me about it Beeema

Kiefer, I know I have been here awhile and I am an Admin. But here is a dumb question: What is this autogenerator and how do I use it? Is it an external program, an internal link I have yet to find or what? Kind of a newbie question, but hey I can always learn something new!--Jeff Saul (talk,contrib,E) 09:27, 15 June 2007 (EDT)

I am back. Non-capitalizers beware! :-] ----Kiefer <img src="/images/5/58/KieferE.jpg" alt="Esperanza" /> <img src="/images/f/f9/KieferTalk.jpg" alt="Talk!" /> 16:05, 20 August 2007 (EDT)

Glad to have you back.

- teknomunk (talk,E,歌) 16:24, 20 August 2007 (EDT)

Glad to be back! Summer was a little chaotic. Anything major happen while I was gone...besides the Big Guy getting married, of course? ----Kiefer <img src="/images/5/58/KieferE.jpg" alt="Esperanza" /> <img src="/images/f/f9/KieferTalk.jpg" alt="Talk!" /> 16:26, 20 August 2007 (EDT)

Nothing major that I know of. Sean updated the main page a bit, WillMak050389 is taking care of the album of the week, Spammers are vandalizing User:TrevorP/Todo/Lyrics, and the usual.

- teknomunk (talk,E,歌) 17:01, 20 August 2007 (EDT)

Welcome back! --Jeff Saul _(T-C-E) 12:15, 22 August 2007 (EDT)

[edit] Thanks

For tearing the crap out of the Fair to Midland page... It wasn't that necessary. But thanks for fixing a lot of the names, when I made all the pages, I tried to do them as quickly as possible. --Sin 15:36, 24 August 2007 (EDT)

[edit] Orphans

This weekend I will be working on cleaning out Special:Lonelypages and I could use some help.

I have a bot that will add song pages to artist pages automatically, but it will not handle true orphans. There are also several pages with broken link tables, but Sean is taking care of that.

But there are unformatted pages, incorrect pagenames and various other pages that need to be taken care of and there are more that I can handle by myself. I doubt that I can get the whole thing finished this weekend, but I have already made a dent in it (the bot is up in the C's).
- teknomunk (talk,E,歌) 11:04, 2 September 2007 (EDT)

Hello, I've been doing a lot of work on the Styx page. I saw it on your to-do list, so you may want to check it out and let me know if I have any errors. Megahexe

[edit] LyricWiki Challenge - Facebook app

Hey,
I don't know if you use facebook or not, but if so... check out the LyricWiki Challenge Facebook app
Let me know if you see any room for improvement, and if it looks good plz try to spread it :)
Thanks,
-Sean Colombo 21:42, 3 September 2007 (EDT)

[edit] BEDlight

Thanks a ton man, I need to figure out how to work mergers and redirects and all that maintenance stuff; I haven't really paid much attention to anything but artist pages, to tell the truth. -- CladInShadows 15:51, 6 September 2007 (EDT)

[edit] Artist categories

Thanks for the reminder about capitalization. Don't be too surprised (or impatient!) if you have to remind me again. :)

I'm editing The John Butler Trio which a bot apparently set up and put in Category:Artists T. While there are many other "The ___" artists here, I'm guessing Artists J would be a better place for it (per The Beatles et al.). Is there a LW policy on this? I'm going to update to J for now; obviously feel free to change it back. --PeterJohnson 17:24, 8 September 2007 (EDT)

Actually, it's a T. I think there were plans at one time to incorporate a subsection for "The" artists(/songs/albums), but more pressing matters have sidelined that, I guess. (Plus, do you do that for Spanish titles or French titles beginning with El or La/Le, etc.?) I don't know...I spend most of my time capitalizing things and correcting song/album/artist names it seems and haven't delved into the categorizing end of things, so I don't know what exactly is involved in such a thing. Then, of course, there are (I'm sure) still some pages that have the article at the end after a comma. ("Beatles, The", for example.) Perhaps after those have been finally cleared out then a bot can insert a subsection category for "The" on each of the appropriate pages. --Kiefer <img src="/images/5/58/KieferE.jpg" alt="Esperanza" /> <img src="/images/f/f9/KieferTalk.jpg" alt="Talk!" /> 19:33, 8 September 2007 (EDT)

[edit] Capitalisation

Understood regarding the capitalisation. Unfortunately, I think breaking the artist's capitalisation is both generally an eyesore and disrespectful to the artists, almost as if we were to modify signatures as we see fit in museums. Of course, it's not my wiki - I just don't see myself contributing in the future because of this. Feel free to revert my edits/moves as you see fit (I don't have any hard feelings on the matter). Laters. --Improv 16:28, 9 September 2007 (EDT)

[edit] Gwen Stefani:Breakin' Up

Good job! I do have the album, so I checked! Tcatron565 17:58, 9 September 2007 (EDT)

[edit] Thanks!

Thanks! I have no idea to add color right now. But, I'll try to learn. I will move it though! It will probably be moved to the top of the page. But again, thanks! Tcatron565 17:22, 10 September 2007 (EDT)

[edit] ALready over

I noticed what the problem was with the Red:Already Over, Pt. 2 and the Red:Already Over, Part 2 pages. One the one that was on the album listing was a redirect to the on that was in the other songs. N8lewis 21:47, 11 September 2007 (EDT)

I am sorry I just went back a re read your post... I fixed it once agian just disregard my last message. N8lewis 21:48, 11 September 2007 (EDT)

[edit] Redirecting

I don't really see why you want to redirect from titles that are wrong to the correct ones, and not just delete the wrong article. That way you wont have a lot of extra links listed as "Other songs" when they are simply typos in the title. And you won't have the same lyric twice on the server :) Sachse 12:02, 13 September 2007 (EDT)

[edit] Moving stuff

Hi, thanks for letting me know - I was wondering why this thing was insisting why "Ziltoid The Omniscient (2007)" was the artist's name, but hey, it's 5am, and I should have gone to bed six hours ago. So.. if you could move the stuff around for me, I'll go to bed and check out what you did, and learn from it when I have a slightly fresher mind on the morrow. Cheers, Unfunk 15:09, 13 September 2007 (EDT)

No problem, I'll put down a little wiki-fu on those pages. Have a good rest on the other side of the planet! (It's 4 pm here.) --Kiefer <img src="/images/5/58/KieferE.jpg" alt="Esperanza" /> <img src="/images/f/f9/KieferTalk.jpg" alt="Talk!" /> 15:12, 13 September 2007 (EDT)

[edit] Sorry

I'm kinda new at this (it took me a little while to figure out how this talk this works)I'll stop with TBM page. Any idea though when it's finished? I was almost done:) — The preceding unsigned comment was added by Cyanide (talk • contribs).

No problem. I'll see what I can do to get things automatically moved over (since there's only 10 titles on the correct page, it shouldn't be much of a problem, I hope) and let you go to town on The Birthday Massacre. --Kiefer <img src="/images/5/58/KieferE.jpg" alt="Esperanza" /> <img src="/images/f/f9/KieferTalk.jpg" alt="Talk!" /> 12:30, 16 September 2007 (EDT)

[edit] Styx and such

Kiefer,

Hello and thanks for the comments - I used to be a Graphic Designer for IBM - and I have a bit of OCD - so that's why things are going as well as they are.

On the subject of things like (Chorus) (Guitar Solo) etc. ... I've been leaving in most of the stuff that I find elsewhere, whilst trying to clean it up at the same time - I hate to throw anything away, and figure if someone else took the time to put it there ... Anyway, I am going through and cleaning up the footers now - thanks for the input. If you have a chance, please take a look at Styx:Lady. I've been looking at the inclusion of "this song appears on the album ..." But, I feel it can be a little excessive - as in the case of this song. Perhaps, just including the original source, and any special outside uses is enough - for a different example, please take a look at The_Rolling_Stones:Street_Fighting_Man, where I included a link back to the "V For Vendetta" page that I created.

That's all. Any comments are always welcome.

Sincerely,
Megahexe 23:17, 19 September 2007 (GMT)

OCD, eh? Well, I'm studying Library and Information Science, so welcome to the club!

Yeah, other sites tend to put in those little notes, ignoring at times that the choruses are slightly different, or just crowding the page with notations that the reader has to take time to decipher. ("Oh yeah, I've got to scroll back up to the top to read what the chorus is again!") Often, I think it's just a shortcut by whoever supplied the lyrics so that they don't have to re-type the chorus (or cut and paste it even!) Anyhow, I tend to leave speaker/singing notes for most rap songs with multiple rappers and duets and such, but I tend to replace or delete other extra notations, especially the chorus.

As for the Styx page.... I love inclusion, but you're right, that may be a bit much. Some groups have so many compilation/live albums that such an album list on their lyric pages would be fairly commonplace. Always do the song's original album then add in a few more major releases (such as their first Greatest Hits album or best-selling Live collection)...and then maybe a "plus various other albums." addition to the last album on the list? I never really thought about what to do with such a monster list, so that's my best idea at the moment.

The V for Vendetta page was good. I moved it to V For Vendetta (2006) to include the release date, though, since all albums should have it. Including the album on the Rolling Stones lyric page was great because it was on an album that most people wouldn't think of as having the song!

Thanks again for your hard work! --Kiefer <img src="/images/5/58/KieferE.jpg" alt="Esperanza" /> <img src="/images/f/f9/KieferTalk.jpg" alt="Talk!" /> 20:23, 18 September 2007 (EDT)

[edit] Two Small Issues

Me, again ...

On Dennis DeYoung I wasn't able to add links to contributing artist's (external) sites - using the standard "wiki" way (e.g. link title). So, I just dropped the links straight into the html and fixed itself. Not really a big issue, but I got a message to report it to you.

On Mary Fahl I can't add a page for the album "The Other Side Of Time (2003)" because a song with the same name (sans date) already exists. I tried to workaround this by creating a "The Other Side Of Time (2003)a" page, but the attempt to rename it (without the a) failed. Any suggestions?

--Megahexe 10:59, 22 September 2007 (EDT)

[edit] Heads up

It looks like there is a new spam/vandal bot targeting our site and putting random text into articles. For example: "ricelt", "chitrcnadomo", and "chitrcnadomo" Just be on the lookout for this new spam.

[edit] Anonymous edits to High School Musical

Hi Kiefer. I see I have accidentally made some edits while not being logged in. I have moved your message from the IP talk page to my own talk page and responded there. I apologize for the confusion. --Mischko <img src="/images/3/31/Talkicon.png" alt="Talk to me" /> <img src="/images/1/1e/EsperanzaIcon.png" alt="Esperanza Member" /> 05:31, 1 October 2007 (EDT)

[edit] ???!!!=

Is "munged" the technical term? :-O !!!!!!! (Oh, dear Lord, I looked it up, and it basically is. *_* ) --Kiefer <img src="/images/5/58/KieferE.jpg" alt="Esperanza" /> <img src="/images/f/f9/KieferTalk.jpg" alt="Talk!" /> 20:05, 2 October 2007 (EDT)

LOL. Yeah, "munged" really is a technical term. It was most popular during the early days of FrontPage (circa 1998); when you wrote something in notepad, and then loaded it in FrontPage, what would come out was not what went in. FrontPage would totally destroy any table sets, dialogs, etc., and the code would be "munged." So - on those Ruslana pages that I marked for deletion - I assume the original source was probably Cyrillic KOI8-R (the most popular encoding in the former USSR) and it was wrongly converted to UTF-8 by the "bot" that collected the lyrics. So, munged would be appropriate.

Speaking of which, I'm trusting my best judgment, but your input is always welcome. Figuring that the LyricWiki website can handle UTF-8, I laid down album and song titles on the Ruslana website in Ukrainian, but entered the page titles in ASCII, transliterated Ukrainian. Is that ok? --Megahexe 06:54, 3 October 2007 (EDT)

It took me a second to understand what you meant. Personally, I'd go with what the Japan Group is doing, and just use the original language/alphabet used. If you wanted to be a total perfectionist about things, then you could create a redirect from the transliterated titles to the Ukrainian titles and add the translated title after the link on the artist and album pages and create a note about the title's meaning on the lyrics page, but that might be much for even one superhuman to do. Basically, though, except for the capitalization policy (which even I basically ignore for non-roman character sets), the title should be as original/official as possible, even with regards to character sets. Does that help? --Kiefer <img src="/images/5/58/KieferE.jpg" alt="Esperanza" /> <img src="/images/f/f9/KieferTalk.jpg" alt="Talk!" /> 07:21, 3 October 2007 (EDT)

PS:What's up with Мить весни. Дзвінкий вітер (1996, 1998) showing two dates? --Kiefer <img src="/images/5/58/KieferE.jpg" alt="Esperanza" /> <img src="/images/f/f9/KieferTalk.jpg" alt="Talk!" /> 07:22, 3 October 2007 (EDT)

Мить весни. Дзвінкий вітер (1996, 1998) is how it's listed on her website - I assume it probably had a release and a re-release. But, I simplified it in the page title as "In An Instant Of Spring: Sonorous Wind (1996)." By the way, I do agree with you on the subject of keeping things as original as possible (I cringe every time I have to change capitalization for the sake of file policy). However, I have always recommended to groups I've been consulting for to use ASCII over the local character set in the naming of files. The problem is that - if your PC/Mac isn't set up to recognize that character set - you end up with things like __.htm. (Backspace slowly past '.htm' and count the number of times your cursor doesn't move.) Even file names can appear as "empty," thus causing the OS to break operation. (Imagine trying to load a series of files (for instance, photos) in an unrecognized character set. if the OS sees an empty file name, it will only load the first and skip the rest. This is just a safety feature to prevent errors in cyclic redundancy check.) ... I think I just got too technical. : ( Sorry. Ugh, I'll take another look at the Japan Group page, and think about it. : )--Megahexe 08:37, 3 October 2007 (EDT)

[edit] Matchbox 20 and Tabitha's Secret=

Thanks for the reply (on my talk page). Alot of the songs in the "Other Songs" section of the Matchbox 20 page are actually Tabitha's Secret songs, and as such, are, of course, on the wrong page. Is there any way to correct that?

I'm a HUGE Matchbox 20/Tabitha's Secret/Rob Thomas fan, so I can assist greatly in cleaning up these pages.

[edit] sorting

thanks - making Patricia Kaas at the moment i got the trick !</br>pink floyd should be obvious (under P in a non-lyricwiki world) but what about alice cooper huhu ?! (was always under A at my's) Krn02 10:16, 6 October 2007 (EDT)

[edit] Capitalization

lyricwiki should not, for foreign titles (french in this case), accept this rule because it's completely wrong.... for instance, for Patricia Kaas, it's sure not "Je Te Dis Vous" but "Je te dis vous", or not "Scène De Vie" but "Scène de vie"; "La Liberté" is correct in french... has it been already discussed?!? (i do not want to make any error more) Krn02 10:21, 6 October 2007 (EDT)

+ i've seen you're undoing my work....... gulp + does LW want to make the same for all titles?!? Krn02 10:25, 6 October 2007 (EDT)

Yes, the explanation is on the LW:PN page. Basically, each country has its own capitalization rules. We break all, so that no matter what artist from what country a visitor (no matter what country he or she is from) is editing, the filing system is the same. The display version of the title on song lists can display the correct capitalization, but for simplicity and universality of filing, the initial-letter-capitalization policy was created. It is better if six people are editing Patricia Kaas:Scène De Vie rather than 2 editing Patricia Kaas:Scene de vie, one editing Patricia Kaas:Scène de vie and 3 editing Patricia Kaas:Scène De Vie. By capitalizing every intial letter of every word, I realize that we manage to break the normal capitalization rules of every country, but at least we break it for all!

Also, as a sort of post script: I noticed on a few of your moves, that you removed accented characters. Were these incorrectly accented or was this in error? (For instance, on preview I notice that none of my examples above work, because the album is filed under Patricia Kaas:Scene de vie (1990) with an e instead of an è.)

--Kiefer <img src="/images/5/58/KieferE.jpg" alt="Esperanza" /> <img src="/images/f/f9/KieferTalk.jpg" alt="Talk!" /> 10:35, 6 October 2007 (EDT)

[edit] accents

i made a wrong choice a few hours ago about accents because i kept them only in the shown text (what we read in the list Patricia Kaas), not in the article title : i will correct these...

this means "À_L'Enterrement_De_Sidney_Bechet" (for "À l'enterrement de Sidney Bechet) is correct, or: "Mon_Mec_À_Moi" (for "Mon mec à moi")...

which means i'm going to make some moves again, too bad... (for me) Krn02 14:32, 6 October 2007 (EDT)

It's okay. I have no doubt that it will all get done. What you currently have looks very good! I tried finding a site earlier today that had a decent discography/song list for her albums, and didn't find a good one (her own website is surprisingly quite uninformative with a few links that do nothing, etc.). It looks like you either have all her albums or have found a good resource! Hopefully this means that things are going better for you! --Kiefer <img src="/images/5/58/KieferE.jpg" alt="Esperanza" /> <img src="/images/f/f9/KieferTalk.jpg" alt="Talk!" /> 18:37, 6 October 2007 (EDT)

[edit] Editing buttons

Hi,
On my user page (probably 8 eons ago), you left a comment saying that the editor's buttons didn't show up on new pages because the yellow box with the links to different templates for "New Artist", "New Album", etc. were covering them up. I checked it out in FireFox and IE7 on Windows and couldn't reproduce the problem. Is it possible that they just took a longer time to load? (they take a lot longer than the rest of the page for me) If not, what browser/OS are you using?
Thanks (and sorry for the much-belated followup),
-Sean Colombo 15:56, 6 October 2007 (EDT)

Yeah, I think that was the problem. At the time they were taking soooooo long to load, that I think they just never did. I don't have that problem any more, (occasionally there is a few seconds delay, but quite manageable) so it really just kind of went out of my mind. Thanks! --Kiefer <img src="/images/5/58/KieferE.jpg" alt="Esperanza" /> <img src="/images/f/f9/KieferTalk.jpg" alt="Talk!" /> 18:28, 6 October 2007 (EDT)

[edit] maybe you can help : article/link

at Patricia Kaas#Other Songs i have a link + article whose link works : J'En Tremblerai Encore

and i have the very same article/link which does not work at Patricia Kaas#Sexe Fort : song #7 = red link

( but here it works: Patricia_Kaas:Sexe_Fort_(2004)#J’en tremblerai encore ?!)

[[Patricia_Kaas:J’En_Tremblerai_Encore|J’en tremblerai encore]] at "sexe fort"</br>[[Patricia_Kaas:J'En_Tremblerai_Encore|J'En Tremblerai Encore]] at "other"

thanks in advance Krn02 00:19, 7 October 2007 (EDT)

I guess it got fixed, because everything seems fine now. I hope that's the case. Sorry about the delay in replying. --Kiefer <img src="/images/5/58/KieferE.jpg" alt="Esperanza" /> <img src="/images/f/f9/KieferTalk.jpg" alt="Talk!" /> 19:22, 7 October 2007 (EDT)

[edit] Something screwed up

Please take a look at this. --MiSP 07:45, 7 October 2007 (EDT)

Yeah, for some unknown reason those Help pages tend to muck things up when sections are edited. I have no idea why, and have suffered from this weirdness myself. --Kiefer <img src="/images/5/58/KieferE.jpg" alt="Esperanza" /> <img src="/images/f/f9/KieferTalk.jpg" alt="Talk!" /> 21:30, 7 October 2007 (EDT)

Think I found the culprit - seems everything works if you only edit the whole page (and not just a section using the "Edit" links on the headings). Perhaps the pre tags are to blame. --MiSP 02:04, 8 October 2007 (EDT)

[edit] Redirect?

Could you please tell me how to do that? I'm very new to this. Thanks

Tejdog1 14:32, 7 October 2007 (EDT)Tej

Delete everything in the page and replace it with this:

#redirect [[page being redirected to]]

Easy as pie. =) --MiSP 14:39, 7 October 2007 (EDT)

[edit] just a question

Hey, I noticed when I looked at the Quietdrive page, there were several albums that weren't acutally released by a record company, but they were self-released. So-- Anyway, my point is, if you are part of a band and have self released an album or EP, can you create an article for it? — The preceding unsigned comment was added by Cell4 (talk • contribs).

This was also asked on my talk page and I answered it there. (Short answer: definitely.)

-Sean Colombo 18:45, 7 October 2007 (EDT)

[edit] Matchbox 20, Other Songs

Is there any way to just get rid of that whole section and allow me to construct it from scratch? Practically every song in that section belongs somewhere else, some need to be deleted, some need to be moved, others are just Matchbox "Twenty" instead of "20".

Tejdog1 16:09, 8 October 2007 (EDT)Tej

There is not really an easy way to do it. The "Matchbox Twenty" songs should be redirected to the "Matchbox 20" equivalents, the ones that need to be deleted should have {{Deletion}} added to the top, and the ones that need to be moved just need to be moved (tab at the top of the song page). If you have any questions or need help, just let me (or any admin) know and we will be more that happy to help. Songs that have been redirected can be removed from the "Other Songs" list without worrying that Janitor will put them back in.

- teknomunk (talk,E,歌) 16:17, 8 October 2007 (EDT)

Redirects, redirects, redirects, I'm afraid. Sorry. --Kiefer <img src="/images/5/58/KieferE.jpg" alt="Esperanza" /> <img src="/images/f/f9/KieferTalk.jpg" alt="Talk!" /> 16:27, 8 October 2007 (EDT)

I guess I should look at my janitor scripts before I post a reply, I had a mass redirect script lying around :P

I took care of redirecting all of the "Matchbox Twenty" to their "Matchbox 20" equivalents, so you don't have to worry about any of that.

- teknomunk (talk,E,歌) 16:37, 8 October 2007 (EDT)

[edit] Mangled Artist Characters?

You may very well be right. I had assumed that it was a band, because lately I have seen some strange band names that really are real bands. I figured better safe than sorry. - Kingnee1114lyrics 15:36, 10 October 2007 (EDT)

Good call by the way. I found that it is a song by Milú. It took a bit, but google is a wonderful thing...

- Kingnee1114lyrics 16:36, 10 October 2007 (EDT)

[edit] By the Way, Thanks

Thanks for your vote of confidence about adminship.
Kingnee1114lyrics 00:14, 11 October 2007 (EDT)

[edit] Signature

Any idea why I can't make a signature under preferences? I joined Esperanza and I wanted to make a link in my sig (for talk pages), but I can't seem to do it! -- Aquatiki 08:12, 11 October 2007 (EDT)

Looking at my preferences, my signature is in the box marked Nickname in the User Profile section. Is that where yours is? I have:

--[[User:Kiefer|Kiefer]] [[User:Kiefer/Esperanza|<img src="/images/5/58/KieferE.jpg" alt="Esperanza" />]] [[User_talk:Kiefer|<img src="/images/f/f9/KieferTalk.jpg" alt="Talk!" />]]

to get:

--Kiefer <img src="/images/5/58/KieferE.jpg" alt="Esperanza" /> <img src="/images/f/f9/KieferTalk.jpg" alt="Talk!" /> 12:19, 11 October 2007 (EDT)

Ohhhh: I was looking for some special tab just for that. Nevermind. --Åqúàŧĩkī - É - Ŧ 23:42, 11 October 2007 (EDT)

[edit] Sum 41 Other Songs

regarding your message, i do not know which artists made those songs, but they are not Sum 41 songs. some are even repeted twice. i removed thosethere are also some songs which are alternated name for songs (ANIC and Asshole, No Brains and Yesterday.com). the ones that i left when i cleaned them up, are live covers which are not on a CD (How You remind me, Rock/ Metallica Medley), and some which are on a tribute CD (killer Queen). please consider this. Thefixer 20:51, 11 October 2007 (EDT)

[edit] Justin Timberlake

Well, thanks for the correction, I looked it up on Wikipedia to make sure which title was correct. I clicked on a link on Justin Timberlake that was the correct title, but it must have redirected me to an incorrect page and I just copied that title. Thanks for catching my mistake. You don't have to punish yourself, I mean, if you don't want to. --WillMak050389 01:03, 12 October 2007 (EDT)

Oh, no. I need no extra punishment.  :- ] I think you may have hit the link on the album page, as it went to the page that you used. That's the problem with separate album pages...they sometimes lag in editing. I'm sure I forget to update them often enough, myself. --Kiefer <img src="/images/5/58/KieferE.jpg" alt="Esperanza" /> <img src="/images/f/f9/KieferTalk.jpg" alt="Talk!" /> 05:24, 12 October 2007 (EDT)

[edit] Do you remember where this is?

Trying to find the template (I think it's a template) that does an anchored alphabetical listing, such as for indexes. Displays in a blue box as I recall, with the letters separated by pipes (if memory serves). Saw it somewhere on the site, but can't find it now to save my life.

Looks like: A | B | C | D | E | F | G | H | I | J | K | L | M | N | O | P | Q | R | S | T | U | V | W | X | Y | Z

Do you recall where that is? Looking to integrate it on the page I'm working on (your comments on that page very welcome, BTW).

JF 05:52, 17 October 2007 (EDT)

Neeeeeeeeever mind. Just found it.  ;-) JF 06:21, 17 October 2007 (EDT)

[edit] Need your opinion...

When you get a chance, please take a look at this page that I'm working on. Teknomunk encouraged me to go ahead, but I was a bit hesitant to drop this onto the actual AlbumFooter page without someone knowledgeable reviewing it first for problems.

And while I'm at it, can you clarify the "noinclude" markup for me a bit? I understand the principle of portions being allowed or disallowed depending whether viewed directly or embedded, but I'm not sure I quite grasp when that would cause problems. Teknomunk corrected the markup on the Default template that I created, and I'm guessing from where he moved things that NOTOC and NOEDITSECTION would propagate to a parent page (and make them noneditable and without a table of contents). But I'm still shaky on when things would propagate "upwards" and when they wouldn't. Been reading up on the markup over at Wikipedia, and still a bit confused. Sometimes RTFM still leaves you fuzzy...  ;)

JF 02:14, 18 October 2007 (EDT)

From what I understand (and I am not a template maker by ANY stretch of the imagination), the noinclude markup is to set aside the description of the template so that it isn't referenced when the wiki follows the template's instructions/code.

Basically, the 'noinclude' sections are only visible when the Template page itself is viewed, while the 'includeonly' sections are only visible when the template is included on another page. The includeonly section generally encompasses the template coding, although, as in the case with the SongFooter, can include headers, etc.

But once again, I haven't tried my hand at template creation. I have modified templates before, but haven't created one from scratch. I am an old-school (from the days of Pascal and C) programmer, so I can usually "read" coding fairly well, though.

I have slightly modified the Template:AlbumFooterPending to remove what I believe are unnecessary noinclude tags and to make the generic template view more readable to editors. (I had to format it like this to make sure that I saw what was happening within the section.)

I do want to say that I appreciate the effort that you are making here. Many of the templates have descriptions (or more lengthy descriptions) because I added them when I had to take the time to figure out how they worked. Many don't, and I've always thought that they should. It is a really good thing that you are doing to make these more accessible to newer editors. Not only do you add content and make helpful edits, but with this project, you are making the site more accessible. A huge thank you!    Kiefer    talk    contribs    admin   14:55, 18 October 2007 (EDT)

Aw, shucks.  :)

Yeah, watching my edits definitely appreciated until I get the hang of things a bit better (and even then!). Just finished a lengthy reply on my talk page concerning a goof I did on the Deletion template. Found a section about inclusion on Wikipedia that might clear up some of my confusion. Will definitely be doing some more reading. But in the meanwhile, may give my head a rest and go back to my Human League tidying.  ;)

JF 20:49, 19 October 2007 (EDT)

[edit] Page names

Hi, I saw your comment about ÜberBot messing up capitalization. He is indeed disagreeing with LW:PN. I remember part of the capitalization issues had to do with trying to make AC/DC and other all-capped names work. This does bring up an interesting problem though... if we're only capitalizing the first letter of every word and leaving the rest up to the real title, that makes naming pages easy for small words "To", "A", etc. but doesn't solve the problem of the SOAP webservice (which I think is 80% of our requests) being able to find all titles.

What are your thoughts on getting the API to always work?

1. Just continue to try to add redirects when songs don't match (the vast majority of songs match right off the bat).
2. Change the standard to make it so that we make the caps all ucwords(strtolower($title)) which is basically what ÜberBot was doing (with some exceptions for weird things like apostrophes).
3. Make some sort of technical upgrade to the API to make it be fine with this capitalization problem (the MediaWiki database setup is case-sensitive). Until this very second I was thinking "this can't be done in a simple, graceful way"... but this is OUR database, we can change it how we want to. Potential solution: make each page-title have an extra column which is the title in all-lowercase and just search on that.

Coming into this comment I was leaning towards #2, but now I'm probably #3, #1, #2? Fairly confused. Input appreciated! (maybe this should go on LW:PN's talk page?)

Thanks,
-Sean Colombo 22:58, 18 October 2007 (EDT)

I'm not sure I am entirely confident about what all of the options involve. I know we get enough grumbling with the all-intial-caps requirement, I'm really not sure if changing the standard so that initial caps and then everything else uncapped would go over very well at all.

I suppose that ÜberBot could be used to automatically create redirects from these alternate capitalizations that it is attempting to 'fix' by uncapitalizing "inside" of words, such as on the Cage page. So, instead of making a correction on the page, he creates a new redirect?

As for option three's potential solution: Once again, I'm not entirely sure what you mean to do here. "Extra column?" What does that involve? Would this solution treat a redirect with alternate capitalization the same as the page with correct capitalization? If so, when searching, which result will be returned? Would it even matter, as if it 'grabbed' the redirect instead of the 'true' page, it would just automatically go to the 'true' page anyhow? I'm not sure. As I stated above, I'm old-school programming (C & Pascal around 1990) so I can usually get the gist of things even if I don't know the specific nuts and bolts of the code. I'm just not very familiar with what the SOAP webservice is doing exactly and how it's used, which makes it difficult for me to give an opinion with confidence.    Kiefer    talk    contribs    admin   21:08, 19 October 2007 (EDT)

You're probably right that changing the standard would be doubleplusunfun. The "Extra column" just means that in the database each page would have a page title and an all-lowercase page title. Basically this would take away differences between differently-capitalized pages (which I think is okay for our use). The redirects would still work fine (the SOAP follows redirects too), but there may be some other problems (like it might be really slow to search). I might have to do serious surgery on MediaWiki to take out case-sensitivity, but in the end it'd probably be worth it.

-Sean Colombo 12:15, 20 October 2007 (EDT)

Hope you guys don't mind me butting in on admin talk.  ;) Concerning the case, my input would be to leave it as it is. However, since some people do have issues (with things like "NoRMAhl" and "k.d. lang"), would a possible solution be to simply add a new parameter to Template:Artist? We have one for "romanizedname", so how about one for "displayname" or something like that where the correct capitalization could be applied for display purposes?

Don't know anything about the machinery involved, but I note that a search will find the contents of Template:Artist along with everything else, so that would solve the problem with finding artists with varied capitalization. And maybe some template tricks could be applied, so that the "displayname" is used for displaying the artist name in every place where it isn't critical to wiki operation and categorization.

I think a lot of users would be more comfortable with the capitalization policy if they had that option, and you'd hear less grumbling. While I'm quite fine with the existing policy, I certainly see the desire for perfection there. "k.d. lang capitalized? That's just wrong..."  ;)

— JF 16:49, 20 October 2007 (EDT)

Well, adding a column to the database would allow us to have the page Normahl, NoRMahl, normahl and NORMAHL would literally be the same page. We could also change it so that the first letter of an artist can be lower case. I don't know how much work would be involved and I, unfortunately have been somewhat busy with school and will be for the foreseeable future so I can't guarantee that I will be able to work on it, but I suspect that several things will need to be changed.

Sean, do you see any technical reasons that this would not work? An actual pagename (all lower case, would be affected by move) and a display pagename (what is shown and used for the URL, SOAP, etc., changed by a new 'rename' command).

To actually make the transition to this would be a little difficult as all pages that would have the same name would have to be merged BEFORE completely transitioning to the new format (likely to be done by the admins).

- teknomunk (talk,E,歌) 00:01, 21 October 2007 (EDT)

[edit] help again

hi again - on the page Patricia Kaas:Piano Bar (2002) i have text (#5 : "...mulligan") which goes under the pic, sigh - thanks in advance Krn02 08:15, 19 October 2007 (EDT)

It's fine for me. What browser are you using?    Kiefer    talk    contribs    admin   19:34, 19 October 2007 (EDT)

[edit] Re: Janitor

Actually, that page was using the Duplicate template, which I, perhaps incorrectly, assumed was officially recognized by the administration of this site. I ended up just redirecting it, but now I'm wondering if Duplicate has any use or if I should just stop using it. ~ Wind Owl 12:25, 20 October 2007 (EDT)

It should be noted that I did not create the Duplicate template, and I had no intention whatsoever of "ignor[ing] the current procedures, and expect[ing] everything to work out." I am very much an advocate of standardization, and I apologize if I've done something to clog up the system. I do ask, however, that the administration consider Duplicate for official use, as it does have potential to be useful (which is why I even started using it in the first place.) ~ Wind Owl

My apologies, I should have said in hindsight that you can't edit a template. My wording of the note was imprecise and unduly terse, which I shouldn't have been, and for that I apologize as well. You do appear to be a conscientious, capable editor, and I should have used a different tone. However, while you did not originate the Duplicate template, you did edit it to include a reason for deletion, which the template did not originally include, and so my concern was justified. The template instead stated (and states) that "It should be merged into that page and then flagged for deletion with {{Deletion|Reason for deletion}}", which is the correct procedure, and why the "Stupid User:Janitor bot is stupid" comment (which is likely what stoked my fire a bit) wasn't true.

As for the template itself, we have templates for merge requests (shown on Help:Templates/Listing) that can be placed on both the merging to and merging from pages. The Duplicate template is pretty (I'm not sure what the sheep picture is for - a symbol of cloning, I guess), but redundant, insufficient (as it goes on only the one page), and suggests that the page should eventually be deleted, when in most cases a redirection would be preferable.

In fact, in most cases of duplicate pages, either the duplicate should be made into a redirect, or should be (if it is an improvement over the correct page) moved using a cut-and-paste from the duplicate page with the redirect manually placed afterwards. All of which isn't much more difficult than placing the template and actually cleans up the duplication in the process. Templates asking for editing help are good if the editor doesn't have the time, skill, or capability (such as with deletions) to fix the problem, but should really be used infrequently.

Hopefully, this explains things a little better and is helpful to you. If you ever have questions, please feel free to ask. I understand that it can be difficult to get one's bearings at a site such as this without help.    Kiefer    talk    contribs    admin   15:20, 22 October 2007 (EDT)

I'm sorry if my 'Stupid Janitor bot is stupid' comment came off the wrong way; I suppose I did start that one, and I apologize. I was unaware of this list and I will conform to it from now on. Perhaps the Duplicate template itself should be flagged for deletion. The Merge request templates are indeed more concise and efficient, albeit perhaps lacking in cute little sheep icons. Again, I apologize for being a hindrance to the LyricWiki system, and in the future I will be sure to refrain from using crude internet memes in my edit summaries. ~ Wind Owl 17:49, 22 October 2007 (EDT)

[edit] Internal link to redirect without redirection

Was working on a new version of Help:Redirect, and when I tried saving, got a warning that the save was being blocked as a possible spam attempt. The culprit was a link that said "Click here to see what a redirected page looks like". I had applied an external link to the LyricWiki:Redirect page, which was the only way I could think of to make it go to that page without bouncing right back to the page you were reading.

Is there any kind of equivalent of "&redirect=no" for internal links? Or is the only option to get an admin to put that content in place to bypass the spam filter?

— JF 17:00, 20 October 2007 (EDT)

Hmmmm. Strange. I'm not sure why it blocked you. "Click here", perhaps? Spammers love the phrase "click here!" At any rate, I added the link to the page, and I hope that it's similar to what you wanted. If not, editing around it should hopefully be good and not get the edits blocked. If so, write me again!    Kiefer    talk    contribs    admin   15:34, 22 October 2007 (EDT)

Actually, that's exactly what I did. Only difference being that the link was applied to the "Click here" part of "Click here to see what a redirected page looks like". Tried a null edit to see if the spam filter would kick me out again for the link alone, and can't tell for certain. This time, it apparently just ignored my save, and I didn't see the "possible spam attempt" message. May try it again, and reword it so there is no "click here" involved and see if it takes it. If worst comes to worst, might put the page in with just the barren link, and get one of my favorite admins to change the text for me. (Hint, hint...)

— jF 01:38, 23 October 2007 (EDT)

Whoah, I stand monstrously corrected. It's having issues with the code for the sample redirect link, not the link to a redirect page. Can't quote the exact text without tripping the spam filter here as well, but it was the anchor and HREF that were freaking it out.

(On that page, hit the top LyricWiki Redirect page link. Then view the source of the page, and look for the uppermost line given a class of "contentSub". That entire line, including the div tags, is what I copied and pasted to display the sample redirect link, and what the spam filter doesn't like.)

By using an internal link instead of the anchor/HREF code, got the same result and the spam filter was quite happy with it. Go figure... Left a comment in the article source, if you want to see where the issue was.  ;) — jF 02:03, 23 October 2007 (EDT)

[edit] Possible new project...

Looks like I'm going to be driving you crazy with questions. Never be nice to me—I will certainly take advantage of it.  ;)

While working on Template:AlbumFooterPending, the thought crossed my mind that a lot of people don't know what an "eponymous album" is. A lot of other things might need explaining to novices, too, such as the difference between original and reissue, what EP's and LP's are, etcetera.

While I'm not sure a full official glossary article would be merited at this point, I did wonder if there was a particular place already slated for such things. Like "Help:Eponymous" or maybe even something like "Definitions:Eponymous". If so, placing small individual articles initially might be best, then collecting and referencing them later in a single document (much as the case with Help:Index).

What do you think?

— jF 18:29, 20 October 2007 (EDT)

I think a glossary section for the site would be a good addition. "Help:Glossary" would be a good location, and could have a musical section header and a wiki section header, perhaps. Help:Glossary/Eponymous could then be created for the definition. Good idea!    Kiefer    talk    contribs    admin   16:02, 22 October 2007 (EDT)

[edit] Take one off your to-do list...

Noticed your to-do list had major capitalization issues on the David Bowie page.  Have a trick or two up my sleeve for fixing such things, and hope you don't mind the assist.  Left it on the worklist in case you had more to do with it, but I hope I've saved you one little bit of headache.  :-)  —  jF 04:13, 26 October 2007 (EDT)

No problem! My to-do list is a bit dated at this point, as I haven't worked on anything on there in probably 6 months. (New things always arrive!) Anything on there is fair game to anyone, and as I recall, that page was a serious mess! Bowie certainly deserves better.    Kiefer    talk    contribs    admin   11:32, 26 October 2007 (EDT)

[edit] Problems with '/' Character

Could you take a look at this for me? I'm not sure what to do about it. ~ Wind Owl 12:11, 26 October 2007 (EDT)

[edit] Linkin Park:In Pieces

Hmm that seems very strange, on the book that came with the CD, which contained the lyrics to all the songs on the album, In Pieces had slashes separating those parts of the lyrics which I assumed must be correct and put down what I had seen, but I suppose I was wrong, sorry about that, my mistake.

Storms

[edit] Special signatures

I know this is probably pretty ridiculous that I don't know this... but I always tend to neglect user-page/signature/edit-count type aesthetics (cuz I'm always so far behind on the code!)... but I was just wondering how you do the custom signatures? I finally decided to look in "preferences", but to my surprise I couldn't find it there. You don't just copy/paste it ever time, do you?
Thanks for the infoz, -Sean Colombo 20:43, 30 October 2007 (EDT)

Wow, I just read another user's comments above. I see now (oopsie!).

Thanks,

-Sean Colombo 20:45, 30 October 2007 (EDT)

Yeah, the place where it should go is not obvious at all. Ah well!    Kiefer    talk    contribs    admin   18:28, 1 November 2007 (EDT)

[edit] Depswa:Other Songs

You need to work on a better bot because it keeps on adding songs from the artist Takida into Depswa. The other songs I have been deleting that keeps on getting added to the Other Songs is already in the album itself. The Other Songs section has a song with lyrics in them so why delete the whole section? Depswa 14:04, 2 November 2007 (EDT)

Replied on User talk:Depswa

- teknomunk (talk,E,歌) 15:05, 2 November 2007 (EDT)

[edit] A Wilhelm Scream:The Horse

hi! I was adding the lyrics to the new A Wilhelm Scream album, and as that song contains some words that triggered the spam filter, it wouldn't work.

"The page you wanted to save was blocked by the spam filter. This is probably caused by a link to an external site. If you think you entered normal text that we shouldn't block, please tell Sean or another admin.

The following text is what triggered our spam filter: Celeb rex"

if you could force it, that would be great! (I had to add a space to simply post it here)

http://lyricwiki.org/index.php?title=A_Wilhelm_Scream:The_Horse&action=edit

cheers

-axel

The lyrics were moved & the page-creation was successful!    Kiefer    talk    contribs    admin   14:00, 12 November 2007 (EST)

[edit] Re: Alicia Keys

I am actually doing A LOT for the Alicia Keys' "As I Am" album page so can you stop being a pain in the ass and just be thankful for all the lyrics I added and am still correcting/fixing? Yeah I don't think the featuring part really matters but if you wanna keep it, keep it then. Just don't bug me anymore and you're welcome for all the pages I help editing as well.

Cheers, Saulo.

How am I bugging you/being a pain in the ass? I contacted you about a piece of correct and useful information that you appear to really want removed to see why. It has nothing to do with the amount of editing that you are doing. I had a question and I asked. Simple as that. I didn't call you names or act in an impolite manner. I asked a simple question.    Kiefer    talk    contribs    admin   10:31, 14 November 2007 (EST)

[edit] In Regards to User talk:Nympholept

I noticed the discussion on this page about deleting redirects. I've thrown up a basic page for deletion policy over at LyricWiki:Deletion. Have a look over this to make sure I didn't forget anything.

As a side note, please be unusually kind to anybody you deal with here. Don't give rowdy users anything to throw back at you. If you would like, I would be glad to finish the discussion over this for you (after you review the deletion policy so that I can hit him with that and he will have no argument to stand on).
- teknomunk (talk,E,歌) 16:59, 19 November 2007 (EST)

I made a few edits. As for Nympholept, I thought I was quite reserved. I tried to be helpful and explain things, and then he called me a bitch. Honestly, I think that was block-able behavior, but I let it slide with a warning. Rowdy is one thing, but rude and offensive is another.    Kiefer    talk    contribs    admin   17:21, 19 November 2007 (EST)

Thanks for the edits, it makes it look better.

And as for User talk:Nympholept, perhaps you would have been justified in blocking him, but always be lenient. Have no mercy on spam bots, but with people, always be kinder to them than they deserve. That is the kind of thing that gives a site its reputation. I wouldn't want our site to be know by "Well, it's a great site for lyrics, but the admins have a 'mightier than thou' attitude I absolutely hate.", if you know what I mean. People always exaggerate things, so be kind as you can; nobody can rightly fault you for that.

- teknomunk (talk,E,歌) 17:33, 19 November 2007 (EST)

Agreed. I'm just thankful that everything is calm again.    Kiefer    talk    contribs    admin   21:02, 19 November 2007 (EST)

Thanks for the link to the page, I'm not arguing about policy, all that needed to be said was "redirects for mispellings will not be deleted" - i understand that now.

I did not mean to call Kiefer a bitch, i meant "be less bitchy" rather than "be less of a bitch". Sorry, i should choose my words more carefully.

I'd appreciate more to be added to the deletion policy page, so that i can better understand what not to mark for deletion

Thanks Nympholept 17:51, 19 November 2007 (EST)

[edit] Emergency

Hidden Skill removed the pending section from the LyricWiki talk: Song Of The Day. Please put it back.
Andrew Horne 04:34, 26 December 2007 (EDT)

[edit] Desparate Plea

I Know Brad Delp died on March 9th. Promise me, you will put Boston:Peace of Mind on the nominations for his death anniversary.
Andrew Horne 23:07, 8 December 2007 (EDT)

[edit] About Joe Strummer And The Mescaleros:Coma Girl

This song also didn't contain plagiarism. It doesn't appear on SongFacts. I made up my own fact about this song.
Andrew Horne 19:10, 8 December 2007 (EDT)

[edit] Agreement

I don't mind. You can edit some of my nominations to improve the grammer.
Andrew Horne 16:21, 7 December 2007 (EDT)

[edit] What does "Part-Time Christian" mean?

A part-time Christian means it's a person who isn't officially a Christian.
Andrew Horne 02:30, 7 December 2007 (EDT)

That's why I'm confused about what you mean. One either is a Christian or isn't a Christian. There's no such thing as part-time or unofficial faith. If you believe and accept that Jesus is the divine Son of God sent to die for the sins of the world, then you are a Christian. If you don't, then you aren't.    Kiefer    talk    contribs    admin   00:12, 7 December 2007 (EST)

[edit] About John Denver album

I think "John Denver Sings" and "The Wildlife Concert" will be better in the main page. What do you think?
Ddpro-alcb 21:12, 28 November 2007 (EDT)

Because of the massive size of the page, only if they are (or have been) commonly available. John Denver Sings had 250 copies given out to friends - nice as a sidenote, but ultimately a very rare item that a limited number of people will really be interested in. Is/Was "The Wildlife Concert" commonly available? If so, then include it. If it's a bootleg, limited edition, fan-created/recorded, or internet-only album, I think the sub-heading is a better place for it - it might even give those albums extra attention because they are set apart as opposed to woven into the long, mainstream album list. Those who are rabid John Denver fans can still reference the albums and research what they need, but the average viewer won't get a page that is super-long and unwieldy. Already the page is so long that some people may have trouble editing it without it going a little screwy. That's my thought process at least.    Kiefer    talk    contribs    admin   19:48, 30 November 2007 (EST)

[edit] Re: Other Songs template

If Other Songs pages are obsolete and will be deleted I shall change the template to (if I managed it to) request all pages that the template exists for deletion, so anyones currently using the template can be easily found. The Light6 11:33, 6 December 2007 (EST)

I was originally going to say that you needn't bother as it is easy enough to do already, but the sub-page for deletion requests does make things a bit easier. I have edited the listing page a bit, however, to include that before an Other Songs page is deleted, that the link to it from the Artist's main page should be removed and made into a plain header. Great job!    Kiefer    talk    contribs    admin   15:06, 6 December 2007 (EST)

[edit] About Chicago:Look Away

"Look Away" is about a breakup bewteen a boyfriend and a girlfriend. But that song was not in SongFacts. It doesn't show the broken relationship fact on Wikipedia either. I listened closely to the lyrics and discovered what those lyrics are about, so I made up a fact.
Andrew Horne 04:29, 06 December 2007 (EDT)

(Replied on User talk:Hornean)   Kiefer    talk    contribs    admin   17:13, 6 December 2007 (EST)

[edit] Album Length

I don't know if you're the person to ask about this, but I'll give it a try. When there are different versions of the same album, the Help section says to put them all together (like here). My question is, when filling in the length of the album in the Album template, what length should be used? The length of the official album? Or the one you'd (in this case) buy off of iTunes? Thanks for the help! Lizz7372 21:09, 6 December 2007 (EST)

Wow....good question! I love stumpers! For the example that you linked to, I would put the length of the original album, without the iTunes bonus track, because most versions of the album would not include that track. When in doubt, using the information from the original release is a safe way to go, I would think.    Kiefer    talk    contribs    admin   23:28, 6 December 2007 (EST)

[edit] Deletion Vs. Redirection

Hey. It's me again! Okay, so I know the LyricWiki policy is to redirect a wrong title if there's nothing drastically wrong with it (like as long as it doesn't have track number or .mp3 in it), and also for common misspellings of a song. But I think this policy's a little too strict, honestly. I've seen so many pages cluttered up due to the Janitor placing pages with incorrect titles in the Other Songs section (take Anberlin for example). There's really no reason whatsoever to have all of these pages be redirects, but that's what they would become under the current policy. I was just wondering if this could be looked into. Thanks again! Lizz7372 00:31, 7 December 2007 (EST)

There's a whole slew of reasons why redirects are preferable to deletions, but the easiest and most convincing is that one of the site bots, Uberbot, from time to time scans websites for lyrics that we don't have and adds them. (Which is where many of those Other Songs pages possibly come from.) If the pages are merely deleted, they very well could be created once again during the next search. In the end, redirects basically take up very little of the site's resources, are useful in a number of ways (searches, mis-typed addresses, keeping existing links from suddenly dead-ending, etc.), ensure that the erroneous page isn't re-created, and takes as much time (if not less) to add to a page as it does to add a deletion request.

Keep the questions coming!    Kiefer    talk    contribs    admin   00:46, 7 December 2007 (EST)

Ah, okay, thanks, that makes sense. I didn't even think of the Uberbot re-adding the songs. That does make more sense! Lizz7372 18:10, 7 December 2007 (EST)

[edit] Forgotten so quickly...?

Maybe this should be directed to Sean instead, but I'm having issues with being logged out in the middle of editing. Don't know if the cookie is expiring too quickly or what, but if I dawdle on a page for any amount of time, I find I'm logged out.

For example, while working on this page, I hit preview once to make sure things were looking okay. I fixed a couple of typos, and then hit save. And then noticed it showed me not logged in. Somewhere between starting the article and when I hit save, it logged me out. Never closed the browser window, and actually had a second one open elsewhere on LyricWiki (a convenience for copying/pasting tricky article links).

As long as I'm hitting the server regularly (once every couple of minutes, I'm guessing), life is good. But sit still for a moment, and I get the boot on the backside.  ;-) Don't seem to be having cookie issues anywhere else—any ideas?

— jF 01:22, 8 December 2007 (EST)

I'm not sure what the time limit is before one is automatically signed out. It happens to me, too when I'm working on a larger project (adding albums to pages, for example). I tend to hit Show preview fairly often to let the server know I'm still around. The trick is to stay active. You may want to bring it up to Sean, though, and see what the cause is. I'm guessing it's so those people that don't officially log off aren't kept in limbo. Security problems could take place if that happened.    Kiefer    talk    contribs    admin   01:33, 8 December 2007 (EST)

[edit] Various Artists

What should be done about albums that have several artists that did different tracks, and these tracks do not appear on any other album? Like this example. Should the entire listing of the album appear on each artist's page (and if so, should all of the titles be linked, or only the ones by that artist?), or should only their own songs be listed in the Other Songs section? Also, on the page for the album, who should be listed as the artist? (Is it possible to put multiple artists for one album?)

Also, I've recently run into a case where an artist first released a song under one band name, then changed their name and re-released the song later under their new name. Should the song links lead to the same page, or if not, should they be linked together in some way? Also along the same lines, if a song is released on different albums, how do you list them all on the song page? (Probably very simple, I think I've seen it before, but I'd rather be sure I'm doing it the right way.)

Thanks again! Lizz7372 20:35, 8 December 2007 (EST)

Check out Help:Contents/Editing/Formatting/Compilations for info about albums that have multiple artists. As for whether an album should appear on an Artist's page, that's a little more difficult to say. If there is only one or two songs, I would just have the song(s) listed under Other Songs, with a parenthetical explanation about the source of the song (link to the album page, as well). If the album has a large selection of songs by the artist, then it's okay to add it to the album listings on the Artist's page, including all tracks. (This situation tends to apply to Soundtracks - Help:Contents/Editing/Formatting/Soundtracks has info on Soundtracks.)

As for a song by the same artist under two separate names, that's a bit tricky, as well. I can see reasons to do it both ways. For instance, Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young would sometimes include songs that they released as solo artist on Live albums. In that case, I just linked to the solo artist's page. If the song is re-recorded for a studio album under a different name, then I would have a separate page (especially if the lyrics have changed some) with perhaps a {{cover}} template to link to the original version.

For listing a song released on multiple albums, you can just use multiple Song templates separated by a <br/>.

Hopefully that covered what you needed?    Kiefer    talk    contribs    admin   00:31, 9 December 2007 (EST)

Yes, that was extremely helpful! Thanks so much! Lizz7372 00:42, 9 December 2007 (EST)

Okay well, I'm still running into some minor problems. Such as, when editing a song that is on a compilation album, how should one place a link to the album on the page? If the title of the album page is placed in the usual spot in the album template, the link created is incorrect because it is ArtistName:AlbumName, when for a compilation album it really should just be AlbumName. I tried just placing a link on my own back to the album page like this. Does that work, or is there something else I should do instead? Lizz7372 01:04, 9 December 2007 (EST)

Hawk Nelson:Last Christmas looks good, as does the album page that it links to! You're doing great!    Kiefer    talk    contribs    admin   01:12, 9 December 2007 (EST)

[edit] Why are not real the Article Diego Grez?

--MusicFan 19:30, 9 December 2007 (EST)

The site http://diegogrez.tk or http://enciclopediadges.wiki-site.com/index.php/Diego_Grez (this page have references).

--201.223.209.78 12:23, 24 December 2007 (EST)

Neither of these sources you mentioned is reputable enough to be considered a "reliable" source. The diegogrez.tk site is hosted courtesy FreeWebs, and the domain is courtesy dot.tk. In other words, it's a freebie across the board, and of questionable origin.

The "Enciclopedia DG" link is also highly questionable. The page there (according to the article history) was created by Grez himself, or at least someone operating under his name. And I doubt the validity of any wiki site which contains only 102 articles and whose main page has seen only 501 hits—I've put in way more page hits than that just from my tinkering on LyricWiki.

If you want Grez to be considered a notable artist and worthy of inclusion here on LyricWiki, it would help to provide some reliable and verifiable sources independent to him, such as:

• Profiles on respected sites like AllMusic Guide, Internet Movie Database, etcetera.

• Articles in established music or movie magazines like Rolling Stone or Variety.

• Information on major recording labels or motion picture studios that his work is handled by.

• Chart listings from a reliable music publication like Billboard.

• Reliable information from other trusted sites, like Wikipedia. (Trust me, I doubt he'd get on there with such scant information either.)

Until you can provide such information, Grez is just another one of the millions of amateurs trying to break into the entertainment field. And frankly, nobody cares about wannabes. Giving publicity to someone who has had little or no success in the entertainment industry is not what this site is for.

You should take the time to read Wikipedia's page on notability, which is quite relevant to LyricWiki's content as well.

— jF 21:56, 24 December 2007 (EST)

I seriously could not have put it better myself. Google was not Grez's friend, either. The page originally had him linked to Hannah Montana as a friend, but there is no link between the two that I could find. No listing as a character on the show, etc., etc., etc. Nothing existed beyond what was on editable sites. At any rate, the pages have been removed. They could return (as an admin, I can undelete pages, too), but I will need to see a reliable source before I do so.    Kiefer    talk    contribs    admin   23:10, 25 December 2007 (EST)

[edit] Oops...

Noticed the move you did on The Human League:Rock 'N' Roll / Night Clubbing. Unfortunately, only saw what the Janitor did first, and tried to fix that. Then noticed you had done a move in the interests of capitalization. I think things are now where they are supposed to be—sorry for the confusion!

Incidentally, what is the rule when a "word" in a title begins with a nonalphabetic character, such as an apostrophe? Do you assume to capitalize against the missing letter (or the character itself), or do you apply the rule based on the first alphabetic character to appear in the "word"? LW:PN doesn't indicate one way or the other...

— jF 05:20, 14 December 2007 (EST)

I'm also wondering about that. Currently I do not capitalize the following letter. For example,

looks to me more unnatural than

This especially goes for the 'scuse part (short for excuse, for the record). Of course this could only be me and what I'm used to. Also, I've encountered a similar problem regarding the a- prefix, as in I'm a-havin' a good time. I can see three solutions to this:

The first one does not capitalize anything, but seems to me as the best alternative: In the second one, a letter that is "not meant to be there" is capitalized, and in the last one, a letter not really at the beginning of the line is capitalized. Any thoughts on this? --MiSP 10:00, 14 December 2007 (EST)

Basically, if the letter would be capitalized if it came at the beginning of a sentence, then I capitalize it if it is in title (linkwise for LyricWiki purposes) and if it is at the beginning of a line of lyrical poetry. So 'Cause and 'Scuse if they are at the beginning of a line. Also I capitalize the 'n' in Rock 'n' Roll, because the A has taken off on a four-day concert weekend and the N needs to step up! :-)

The weirdest thing for me capitalization wise are those hyphenated words such as "four-day", "grr-rrr-rreat!", and "a-rockin'". Basically, if the hyphenated part is a standalone word that has been linked to another with the hyphen, then I capitalize both. (Four-Day, for example.) If it's part of a sound effect (Grr-rrr-rreat!) or the hyphen is primarily for readability/pronunciation/etc. (A-rockin'), then I only capitalize the initial letter.

LW:PN doesn't mention this because I don't think it has really been discussed much. Perhaps trying to list all of the possible permutations would be more confusing than helpful anyway. The situation doesn't really come up all that much, I don't think.    Kiefer    talk    contribs    admin   02:05, 15 December 2007 (EST)

Gee, I'm good at launching discussions.  :-) Excellent examples, MiSP—that helped me get my thoughts clear to do some research. Generally, however, I'm opposite you here. I would find that "’Cause" and "’Scuse" would be correct for the start of a line; and "A-rockin’" to be correct if starting a line, and "a-rockin’" to be correct if not.

That comes from a background in copyediting and typography, but I couldn't say with certainty the rule involved, so I went and dug out my AP Stylebook, Strunk & White's Elements of Style, and others for a peek. And from what I've found, there are no rules concerning capitalization with omission of letters. From a journalistic standpoint, most writers simply reword their writing to avoid any awkward situations like these. We can't do that, however—we have to face those issues when quoting lyrics.

But, did find some interesting rules. While authorities differ on whether a superscript (') or an apostrophe (’) should be used, they do agree on the following:

• A single diacritical mark (superscript or apostrophe) should be used to represent any number of omitted letters.

• A single mark should be used at every location in a word where there is an omission.

So those rules are clear enough. But how do they apply to capitalization? I think the key here is to remember that those marks indicate omission of letters—in other words, those letters are no longer there. So logically, if the letters are no longer present, you have to capitalize against the ones that remain. With me so far?  ;-)

In the example I asked Kiefer about, the word "and" has been changed to "’n’". Following those universal rules, a mark appears for every instance in the word where an omission has been made. One at the front to cover the missing "A", and one at the end for the missing "D". That leaves the first letter (and in fact, the only letter), the "N".

From there, we can logically apply the other rules we know. The first word of a line in music or poetry always gets capitalized, so "’Cause" and "’Scuse" would be correct. The "be" and "ex" have been omitted from the front of those words, so it falls to capitalize against the letters that are still there. In the case of "Rock ’N’ Roll / Night Clubbing", Kiefer would be quite correct, even if he couldn't explain why. (Kidding, obviously.)

And by following this train of thought, it also makes sense to capitalize against any letters that have been added to a word, just as you would capitalize against those left after an omission. So "A-rockin’" would be correct for the start of a line, and "a-rockin’" anywhere else. And since LW:PN still takes precedence over any other rule, that would be capitalized as "A-rockin’" in a song title. The old Ella Fitzgerald song "Just A-sittin’ And A-rockin’" would be correctly capitalized. Granted, it does look rather odd, but would be totally in compliance with LW:PN's directive that "All words, regardless of whether the artist capitalizes that letter...must have their initial letter capitalized". Kiefer is two for two!

Mind you, if the system ever gets modded to allow proper case of article names, this is going to toss all this out on its freakin' ear...  ;-)

— jF 06:50, 15 December 2007 (EST)

Thanks, jF – I actually agree now that you put it that way. However, concerning the mentioned song (Just A-sittin’ And A-rockin’): Wikipedia capitalizes it as Just A-Sittin' and A-Rockin'. What is correct here? And since we're already at it: Should contractions like can't and You're use a superscript or an apostrophe? I've always thought that the superscript (the vertical one) is the correct, and gotten annoyed over every apostrophe (the diagonal one) I saw. Also, computer use in general seems to favor the superscript, since that can be brought forth with a single keypress, whereas the apostrophe, being a symbol one can put above other letters, must be pressed two times (and then the two of them might show up simultaneously, requiring that you delete one of them). --MiSP 10:28, 15 December 2007 (EST)

Hope Kiefer doesn't mind us hijacking his talk page.  :-) Must keep in mind that Wikipedia, while a wonderful reference for a lot of what gets done here, operates under slightly different rules. Each site that runs MediaWiki can specify how they want things to operate. From my understanding, LyricWiki created the "capitalize every word" rule to facilitate some unique functionality and features (among them, automatic population of the lyrics database from existing sources). So our beloved LyricWiki, while quite similar to Wikipedia, necessarily does a few things differently. Their capitalization is right for their wiki, LW:PN is right for ours.

(That being said, I do think that Fitzgerald song would look much better with capital letters all the way through. I can quote rules, but don't necessarily always agree with them. As a beloved English teacher once said, "Learn the rules, then learn how to break them.")

Probably should have left the whole apostrophe/superscript thing out of the picture. I intentionally used directional apostrophes for my post to make them a little easier to see with those surrounding quotation marks, and in hindsight, that probably wasn't wise. They are two different characters with different uses, but tend to be used interchangably. For most purposes (including the naming of things on LyricWiki), use the superscript (the one two keys to the right of the L on a standard keyboard). It "maps" better between different platforms (Windows, Macintosh, Linux, etcetera), and is what any touch-typist uses when typing a contraction. (I suspect a lot of those directional apostrophes you are seeing came about because the lyrics were typed on a Macintosh, which maps those characters to different locations in a character table.) While technically inaccurate in a lot of usages, the superscript character has become an "acceptable error" in the computer world.

And since you mentioned, an apostrophe is NOT the same thing as an acute accent (which is what I think you're talking about). That is notable on this artist, and in words like "café". To get that acute accent on a PC, hold the ALT key and type 0233 on the ten-key pad. Release the ALT, and it will drop it into your document. (On Mac, it's OPTION+E, E if memory serves.) This is a single character, not a combination of a letter and an apostrophe. Very common mistake, and one that I tend to be anal about.  ;-)

I'd be glad to discuss such things further, but I strongly suggest moving such discussion to my talk page. Kiefer may not appreciate me getting long-winded on his page.  ;-)

— jF 04:11, 16 December 2007 (EST)

Nah, go ahead with the discussion. I tend to be the "Filing Sheriff" around here, so it's good to hear from people who care about such issues. I may have to take back my earlier comments about a-rockin', as it does "look" better capitalized in the title. But then again, I may have just been corrupted visually by the caps policy here. Copyediting and typesetting, eh, jF? Nice. Your expertise then, is certainly welcome in this discussion. Unfortunately, I'm a bit distracted due to a death in the family, so I'll leave you to discuss amongst yourselves.    Kiefer    talk    contribs    admin   20:49, 16 December 2007 (EST)

My condolences, K. — jF 00:12, 17 December 2007 (EST)

[edit] GonzaloC

I noticed that GonzaloC (talk • contribs) was still breaking pagename policy, and he is still doing the same thing. Maybe you could talk to him more about it?
King_Nee1114lyrics 21:32, 15 December 2007 (EST)

Yes. Hmmm. Perhaps a language barrier? I'll try again.    Kiefer    talk    contribs    admin   20:49, 16 December 2007 (EST)

[edit] RE: Moved Page

Thanks for spotting that. I goofed it, and then could not find it again...I took care of it now
King_Nee1114lyrics 17:23, 19 December 2007 (EST)

[edit] You'll love this...

Went over to YouTube to watch the video for your SOTD nomination, "Baby Got Back". While there, noticed this video, and was in the floor. Check it out!