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Reconsidering Hard4me's adminship (take 2...)

Hello fellow admins. This is something that I brought up on the admin portal over six months ago, but removed it because I was really scared how it would turn out, because really, it's not a pleasant subject in the slightest. But, lately as I was seeing more and more of Hard4me's unconstructive edits, I realized I should man up and bring this up here, yet again, without chickening out this time. Because, let's face the facts, this will need to be discussed at some point, and I really need to get this off my chest.

Here is the original post I made here last August:

"This has been on my mind for a while, and I'm wanting to know what you guys think. I feel like since Hard4me's been administrator, he hasn't done a whole lot of..."administratorly" things I guess. I also know that he's caused some controversy with me and Senv in the past (1 - 2). In these two cases, me and Senv were trying to teach him how to do things correctly and him for ignore them (deliberately or accidentally, though, that I don't know). Of course, when he did finally acknowledge them, not only did he provide a one-word response in my case, but in Senv's case, waited weeks to respond, and continued to make the same mistake despite being reminded multiple times. I should note that he got very defensive towards me when I tried to help him. He's gotten into multiple edit wars from what I remember, as well (though I will admit, one or two of those was with me, but we resolved that shortly after).
It feels like he has trouble following directions and keeps wanting to do things "his way" and deems all other ways incorrect. Also, this probably has nothing to do with it, but I feel like he's a little young still, so this may purely just be him being naive (then again, I'm only a year or two older than him, if I remember his age correctly, but I don't make nearly as many mistakes as he does).
All in all, from what I've seen, it seems like Hard4me is a somewhat naive administrator who isn't always capable of being taught the right thing and continuously formats things incorrectly. This may be just my opinion, so I'd like to see some input from other admins. Of course, it would be nice to see some input from Hard4me on this as well, and he could hopefully provide some rebuttal on why he should stay administrator, and might even vow to improve (as long as he actually sticks to his word this time). I think he just needs some direction, because this is stuff that he can easily improve on, and I believe that he can do it. He never checks this portal though so he would have to get a reminder on his talk page to check it."
So, I don't really want to reword my original post too much, because it's still pretty much what I have to say on the issue. However, one of the main problems I can see here that I'd like to add is actually breaking this news to Hard4me in the first place, because as we all know, he almost never bothers to check his talk page, which bothers me beyond belief. Because of this, I have no idea how we're going to contact him. So, if we wanted an input from him on this, well, I can't imagine us actually getting one. So if the admins actually come to a valid decision, we may have to just demote him without him even knowing about it. I'm not sure how this would work...
Another addition I'd like to make to that post is where I say in the last paragraph that we can easily teach him to improve and give him some direction to do the right thing. I've realized this is not exactly as easy as I made it sound, taking into account the fact that, despite that me, Senv, and other admins tried to give him help on his talk page before, he very rarely followed it. In fact, he usually ignored it altogether or simply gave it a one-word response, and then continued to make the same mistake.
Well, that's about all I have to say. Not looking forward to this discussion, but it's something that we have to get out of the way... XxTimberlakexx (talk) (contribs)13:19, March 22, 2014 (UTC)
I have little to add, except that h4m hardly ever uses his admin powers other than to delete pages, or move without leaving a redirect, both of which he shouldn't have done in many cases… — 6×9 (Talk) 12:55, March 23, 2014 (UTC)
Have nothing new to add also, or, to be precise, - I'm not eager to repeat an evident truth: h4m always was and still remains a negative magnitude in sense of adminship. --Senvaikis (talk) 07:56, March 24, 2014 (UTC)
Completed. I'd like that unpleasant job was done by Chris, but he's too rare guest now on LW. Anyways, I'm sure he'd agree - that should be done long before imo...--Senvaikis (talk) 08:24, March 24, 2014 (UTC)
Good going Senv, it's probably best to get the dirty deed out of the way than to drag it on longer than it needs to be. Plus, I feel like we would be the only three to comment on this either way, and I'm sure this has been on the administrators's minds for a while. I just wonder how Hard4me will react to this, or if he'll even react at all...
But Senv, I'm starting to wonder, if Hard4me was always such a "negative magnitude" as an administrator, then why wasn't his demotion brought up sooner? He was administrator for ~2 years before we demoted him. A better question would be: why did we even promote him in the first place? I'd like to know, because I never heard the reasons behind his promotion. Chris promoted both me and him the same day, and while Chris told me why I was promoted, he didn't mention why H4M was. XxTimberlakexx (talk) (contribs)20:23, March 24, 2014 (UTC)
I guess you'd have to ask Chris, if I read this correctly he suggested it to Sean. (Hope this doesn't come across as fingerpointing…) IIRC his edits back then were fairly consistent, and he did a lot of work on Album of the Week. — 6×9 (Talk) 10:47, March 25, 2014 (UTC)
Ah okay, that makes more sense. So it seems that his editing quality slowly decreased ever since his promotion. Interesting... XxTimberlakexx (talk) (contribs)21:06, March 25, 2014 (UTC)

New promotions

When Hard4me was demoted, it got me to thinking that maybe it's about time for some new promotions. Over the last 2+ years (ever since the last bout of promotions, that is) I've seen quite a few users that I think are worthy of consideration. The main ones that come to mind atm are:

  • Dr. Beat - Very friendly user who I've talked to a lot. I've taught him many things (such as uploading images and other facets of wiki editing) and he is a very diligent editor. Recently, he's been working hard to reduce the OS categories (Low, moderate, and severe) which I greatly applaud him for, and I think he'd be a perfect candidate for administrator
  • Lichtweber - Another hard worker, and has been actively engaging in wiki discussions lately (even making that proposal for using writer's names as an artist prefix)
  • Arwen4CJ - Don't really have much to say about him (only because I haven't talked to him that much); mainly the same stuff I said for Lichtweber, but they both definitely know what they're doing. His edits impress me and he does a great job in maintaining a wide array of articles.

On the contrary, should we keep Redxx promoted or not? I've seen from logs that she was an extremely helpful admin back when she was around, but she hasn't edited for a little over four years now...I don't know what the consensus is for demoting admins if they've been inactive, but four years is a long time and I don't know if she'll ever be coming back.
So, what do you admins think? Should we consider promoting/demoting any of these users? XxTimberlakexx (talk) (contribs)21:06, March 25, 2014 (UTC)

I don't think we should concern much about Redxx admin grants, Nick, - actually they neither endanger LW nor require any additional resources. Btw, there are other currently-inactive-admins with even older last-loggin dates, one of them still wears a hat of bureaucrat, why then ask about R only?.
And one more note: don't know about others, but personally I don't like any discussions about any admin demotion in a public namespace.
Now about pretenders.
  • Dr. Beat, silently promoted by me to trusted yet in January, is undoubtly one of the most diligent, consistent and trustworthy editors atm. I wouldn't be so sure about his communicational habbits though (the bad example of one admin could be the possible reason), but I'm technician, thus may sweep that aside in hope that will come with time.
  • Lichtweber was asked to think about a possible adminship yet in September. Then he's expressed some doubts about his readiness and time availability. It would be unfair if I not confessed - later I've thought that was a wise decision. Still can't forget my friend Echo - I still miss him, but can't forget also the problems, caused by his reinless activity... Anyways, we may reask Weber what he thinks about that now.
  • Arwen certainly has no concurents in his thoroughness. That's good, especially for a job he and his friend are ready to start in our docs. With one condition: he should promise us not to make LW a Christian-only-lyrics-site ;).
--Senvaikis (talk) 12:46, March 27, 2014 (UTC)
Well, I wasn't entirely sure if Redxx's adminship was a big deal or not - that's why I was asking what the consensus is for inactive admins ;) So, I get what you're saying - doesn't really matter if inactive admins are still promoted, because it's not really harming anything. And yes, I understand you don't like talking about admin demoting in public namespace, but 1) it's really the only place to discuss those things and 2) we had to discuss a demotion one header ago, and while it's not a pleasant subject it's not always an avoidable one either. Also, wait a minute...EchoSierra's a male? Coulda sworn she (he?) was female. But yeah, I don't know what happened to her - when she came back for a while, she was a real solid admin, but then disappeared yet again out of nowhere.
Anyways, back to the admin candidates. About Dr. Beat: I know communicating habits aren't even remotely a factor for adminship (I got your allusion to Hard4me there, so point taken), but I was just throwing that in because he's a good friend of mine and I've observed his editing for a long time.
Pushing the communication factor aside tho, you can't even compare his edits to Hard4me's - they're a lot more in-depth and he's a lot more diligent than Hard4me's ever been. Honestly, I think he'd do great and I have high hopes for him. I mean, I wouldn't want to guilt trip myself for suggesting this though if he does turn out like Hard4me, but judging by his edits, I highly doubt he will, and I trust that he'll make an excellent admin.
The deal with Arwen and Weber sounds good - definitely contact Weber about this, I'd like to see what he wants to do. And heh, I don't see why it matters what Arwen edits - he's into Christian stuff, so if that's what he'd like to edit, so be it.
I wanna see what 6 has to say before we promote anyone of course, since you, 6 and I seem to be really the only ones active in the AP these days SmileXxTimberlakexx (talk) (contribs)00:37, March 28, 2014 (UTC)
You're surprised Echo is male… and you both call Arwen "he"? Mind, I can't remember whether she ever confirmed her gender, but since she named herself after a female character…
I've been waiting for other opinions because I was kinda undecided… Turns out Senv has pretty much the same concerns, and spelled them out clearer than I could have done. I didn't think of Echo when I considered Lichtweber (though by the time I started on LW Echo was already an admin, so I don't know what he was like before that), but I did occasionally notice some potentially problematic attitudes. But maybe they were just born out of frustration on the root pages policy not moving forwards…
So I'm okay with all three.
PS. I've already taken the liberty of promoting Arwen & LW to trusted; well-deserved I think, regardless of adminship. — 6×9 (Talk) 08:38, March 28, 2014 (UTC)
Oops... Now, after a longish journey through multiple Inet accounts, I see - 6's right again.
The French are right - it's always better to bring apologies to a woman, especially if that's not your guilt ;) My apologies, Melissa :) --Senvaikis (talk) 11:35, March 28, 2014 (UTC)
Heh, well, genders are always an ambiguous thing online unless someone openly states whether they're male or female... To be honest I always assumed Echo was a girl because he had Sierra in his username, plus I always had a really female vibe while talking to him.
Anyways, it seems like we all agree on Dr. Beat and Arwen being promoted, so should we start by promoting them now, then? It seems like we should ask Weber first before we promote him because of the aforementioned issues he may have with his availability, so we should probably hold off on him for now until we hear from him on the matter. XxTimberlakexx (talk) (contribs)22:04, March 28, 2014 (UTC)
It's probably good form to ask all three of them first. Would you like to do the honours? — 6×9 (Talk) 11:06, March 29, 2014 (UTC)
I guess I could. I actually didn't think I needed to ask them, because when I was promoted, I was never asked; Chris just told me I was getting promoted and I just went with it. But alright, I'll do that. I just asked Dr. Beat on Facebook via PM (waiting for a response), and I'll ask the other two now. XxTimberlakexx (talk) (contribs)13:29, March 29, 2014 (UTC)
Just one nuance: it would be better not to keep a long pause between questions to Arwen and Weber... :) --Senvaikis (talk) 13:56, March 29, 2014 (UTC)
That wasn't my fault, Senv, I had to eat breakfast after I asked Arwen Wink I have a life and whatnot. Plus, I don't see why it matters when I asked them: I still asked them both.
Anyhow, Dr. Beat says he'd love to, and Arwen has accepted as well.
Weber, on the other hand, stated that as an admin he wants to have a distinct responsibility for things such as root page stuff. Do you two think this could be arranged? XxTimberlakexx (talk) (contribs)17:46, March 29, 2014 (UTC)
Welcome to the new admins (now that they can see this page)! I know, I know, I have to keep poking my head in every so often so people realize I'm still around. Trainman (talk) 19:40, March 30, 2014 (UTC)
Thanks.  :) I went ahead and added the Dr. Beat, myself, and Lichtweber to the List of active admin so that users could find us easily. --Arwen4CJ Talk 19:57, March 30, 2014 (UTC)

My First Batch Move

I want to make sure that I do everything correctly. Del Tha Funkee Homosapien (and any song/artist under artist name) needs to be redirected to Del The Funky Homosapien. I am guessing I would need to batch move the songs and albums first, and then the artist page? Anything I need to know before I do this? --Arwen4CJ Talk 16:28, April 3, 2014 (UTC)

The order (batch move/artist page) doesn't matter. Batchmove also fixes the song links on the album pages; it doesn't fix Song and Album templates, or any other links to the artist page. You might want to leave those to Senv or me – too many to do by hand!
If a target page already exists (there's two with "The"), BM will slap a merge template on both pages. You can avoid that by previewing first (always a good idea) and see if there's any pairs that need to be merged. Have fun! :-) — 6×9 (Talk) 17:21, April 3, 2014 (UTC)
Thanks. So am I all ready to run batch move then? --Arwen4CJ Talk 18:08, April 3, 2014 (UTC)
Go ahead (that's what I meant by "have fun"). — 6×9 (Talk) 19:06, April 3, 2014 (UTC)
Oops, I accidentally did it twice. I didn't think it had worked the first time because it gave me a blank screen when it was done. (I've been having trouble with my Internet connection the last couple days, and I noticed that earlier today lyric wikia was having problems.). How do I fix the extra ones? Can I just delete the extra pages that just have merge templates on them, as well as the merge templates themselves? --Arwen4CJ Talk 21:16, April 3, 2014 (UTC)
Never mind...I see what put the merge template on the old page name, not the new one. So how do I "merge" them into the correct one? I might play around in my sandbox a bit to see if I can figure it out. --Arwen4CJ Talk 21:39, April 3, 2014 (UTC)
Running it twice shouldn't matter, since it ignores redirects. Looks like the merge templates were added because most pages at "The" existed as redirects, but the redirects were badly formatted: #Redirect[[...]] instead of #REDIRECT [[...]]. They work either way, but BM is unfortunately picky about that kind of thing. So the next best thing is to manually move source to target, and when LW complains that target exists, click the checkbox to delete it. — 6×9 (Talk) 04:54, April 4, 2014 (UTC)
I've deleted the malformed "The" redirects, so if you want to give it another go, batchmove should now handle the remaining pages without problems. — 6×9 (Talk) 17:29, April 4, 2014 (UTC)
Arwen, I know I'm mighty late on this - but I just wanted to say: don't feel bad for messing up your first batch move. Trust me, my first batchmove was a disaster (I'm sure Senv remembers that Korn to KoRn batchmove I made 2 years ago...) - it takes some time to get used to the tool. Wink XxTimberlakexx (talk) (contribs)03:31, April 12, 2014 (UTC)

Now I did one too: Aaron -> AaRON. Strange: I had to move the artist page by hand. No idea why. One of you guys care to check?      Lichtweber       talk    service   18:06, April 17, 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, Batchmove's always been like that - it'll move all of the song/album pages (and even change the artist name on all the album pages), but the artist page itself, the Song template artist link, and the artist name for the songs on the artist page need to be manually changed. XxTimberlakexx (talk) (contribs)22:05, April 17, 2014 (UTC)

I've started a batchmove guide, since this will probably come up again in the future… Feel free to update/correct/amend it! — 6×9 (Talk) 12:23, April 19, 2014 (UTC)

Great! Thanks, man! So you or Senv wanna send your robots? Cuz I'm not sure if I want to handle the outcome ... X-)      Lichtweber       talk    service  
Looks good, 6 Smile Could we possibly link to that on Special:Batchmove? XxTimberlakexx (talk) (contribs)16:22, April 19, 2014 (UTC)
@LW: Done; there's still the merges to deal with though. Those should be done by hand; a bot can't tell which lyrics are in better shape.
@Nic: AFAIK not without access to the special page's source code. I've put a link here though. — 6×9 (Talk) 08:59, April 20, 2014 (UTC)
Could we possibly ask Sean for the link to the Batchmove page's source code, then? I know I was able to edit the source code for the Upload page recently to emphasize that images can't exceed 500x500 (putting it in big, red letters instead of simply bold), so I figure the Batchmove page shouldn't be that much different. XxTimberlakexx (talk) (contribs)23:18, April 22, 2014 (UTC)
Sorry – with source code I meant the actual .php file; can't edit that without direct access to the server. — 6×9 (Talk) 07:38, April 27, 2014 (UTC)

Visual changes

FYI: Content team is re-doing the skin a bit. Thread here has more info: LyricWiki_talk:Community_Portal#Visual_changes
-Sean Colombo (talk) 00:52, April 15, 2014 (UTC)

If it wouldn't be much trouble for the rest of you admins, it would be nice if you all could provide feedback on this layout in the above thread. I've already stated my thoughts there and I feel this is something we need to discuss. XxTimberlakexx (talk) (contribs)02:53, April 26, 2014 (UTC)
New skin? OK with me. (Sorry for getting back late)      Lichtweber       talk    service   20:54, May 19, 2014 (UTC)
Hah, you're one of the lucky ones, Weber - the skin was abysmal when they first changed it - the color of buttons/tabs was purple and the main page was significantly changed without discussion first (removal of Top 100, addition of "featured lyrics" section). It's all been fixed now though and the only remnants of the visual changes now are the purple background, the new grey background of lyrics boxes, and the logo. XxTimberlakexx (talk) (contribs)00:18, June 5, 2014 (UTC)

An Attempt to Clear the Mess

I post this here cuz I assume this is not a public space A few weeks back I started to clear the Disney mess (loads of pages misattributed to Disney as performer, long lists of non-English lyrics pages on bad shaped album pages, and so forth).

The reason I started this is to get some well formed song and album pages as an example that can be followed when setting up new pages or sorting songs. Maybe for a future User Guideline or How-To. I am guessing you agree that this is a task worth trying.

Most of the Disney soundtracks deriving from animated (children's) movies are released in many languages. This is why I started to create seperate album pages for those releases. Now, you, Senv, reverted an edit I made, stating I should prove the existence and set up the page. That didn't help, because I think it confuses users. I think we should rather support each other.

For many of those non-English releases you can hardly find satisfying refs anywhere, but they do exist anyway. (for the one in question I only found this one Wikipedia16. Apart from that I didn't have the time to set up a new page and do all the research right away). Would you be so kind to please restore the link, Senv?

For the future, I'd be glad if you guys could first get back to me on my talk page if sth is unclear. This way we spare users from getting confused, and us from being embarrassed.

If you like, we could discuss how this is done the best way. F.i. I am not sure about the use of {{Ainfo}} for the list of releases (language wise). Maybe we should create a new template for that task? Thx      Lichtweber       talk    service   15:42, May 21, 2014 (UTC)

Unfortunatelly, I'm leaving and just can't respond suitably right now. Will be able to do so only on Monday.
May say only one - you are starting to frighten me. Hope my fears are baseless...--Senvaikis (talk) 12:26, May 23, 2014 (UTC)
Well-spent weekend served me a good favour - I've lost almost all that initial irritation, caused by your strange attempts to deceive other admins. That's why now I limit my msg to just a short note.
Have you really expected that other admins not noticed, who (and how) has started this sequence of revertions? Moreover - they surely could notice, that atm of this edition mentioned release page even haven't been created. Even now, after belated your editions this "release" page still doesn't meet even minimal LW requirements for album page (any release info, any external links, missing full tracklist etc). So, you repeatedly re(re)verted other admin editions, making that in contradiction to current LW policy and without any discussion with that admin. Well, that's not the first time for me. But claiming me in edit war or lack of support after that? You should be more fair, Weber. And revert you edition by yourself - I'm not going to participate in any edit war with any admin.
I do appreciate your attempts to "clear the Disney mess". Just one, last note: if you are clearing one room, dropping all its garbage into another rooms (simultaneously creating additional garbage, often - in geometric progression) - don't expect any admiration from these rooms inhabitants. Album pages without any reliable release info, without album arts, without any external links, often - without any blue link, sometimes - even with incomplete or just plaintext tracklist; songs by artists having no page on LW etc - all these objects are some kind of garbage (in terms of LW policy), and someone should clear them in the future. Maybe it would be better if such releases as Norvegian or Polish still remained in their subpage state - just as list of known songs, contained in these releases, untill there's no info about them available? Hope you still remember - LW is lyrics site...
--Senvaikis (talk) 09:16, May 26, 2014 (UTC)
Reading your reply with words like "attempt to deceive" and "garbage", I sense a lot frustration and even anger. So I am glad that we are talking about that now, and get a chance to sort things out. I am sorry that some of my edits are causing such emotions. and I want to do better. Maybe I should have brought up a request for counselling earlier (because that is what I am trying to do here, really). But on the other hand I trusted that you guys would tell me if I was on the wrong path. And in regard of the emotions mentioned above I really think it would have been better to tell me in a post rather than in a revertion (that still is dubious to me).
Actually, you are pointing at some issues where I was uncertain:
  • plain text: I admit, I thought it no use to build links for score tracks only to being forced to insert a (false) "performer" i.e. the composer. Still a big issue for me. But if you insist, I will redo all of them, and won't create new ones. Do you?
  • creating homeless pages by replacing "Disney" and such by an actual performer: I was under the impression that this is what our policies demand. And since all of those pages are listed on an album page (or a list page), bots won't create one-song artist pages, right? If you don't think this is the right thing to do - please tell me what you would rather do?
  • Album pages: I considered it sufficient if there was at least a WP link referring in some way to listed songs. And I delivered those links on all the album pages I set up. I didn't always link to the song section, though, but I saw that you fixed that on some pages. I still do not understand why you removed this link from the polish album page, though, instead of completing the link to the song list? (please note that it wasn't me who created that page). That is what I meant when I said we should support each other: Rather add than remove, and give newbies (Xfactor1234, in that case) a chance to learn.
In general I usually set up album pages whenever I can get reliable sources. If I cannot, I set up a link with the proper name of the album and then redirect to a list page, where I put the available songs temporarily until all needed information will be retrieved. Is that ok, or would you do it differently?
Now, in the case in question, and in others too, the above newbie changed those lists into album pages and moved them. I didn't do anything about it yet because I am still hoping that she will add more information. But we should give her a chance to do that, right? (on the other hand she messed up Annie (The Musical) real bad, so one of us should probably talk to her soon).
In conclusion: No matter what you guys think of my approach, I think we should agree on a consistent solution for that kind of pages, because they are popular and users should be given an example of how these pages should be built.
OK, I hope I made my points and hopefully hear your opinion/suggestions soon      Lichtweber       talk    service   21:51, May 26, 2014 (UTC)
I'd prefer not to return to emotional aspects of the issue, but preamble of your response necessitates me doing that, although that positively will take an additional hour(s) (you know - I'm not very hot at English). Btw, my bad English is one of reasons (after laziness) why I usually prefer an exemplary edition with short comment instead of long instructions how it should have been done ;)
  • preamble:You should not be mad on me for some words/phrases you didn't like - it would be much worse if I decided not to discuss with you at all. Once again - keep in mind my bad English, sometimes making my posts being understood with a vice versa precision :)
    • "garbage": First of all let me notice, that you extracted this word from context, where it was used more in allegory about room clearing, not as direct characteristic of particular editions. But every allegory features some shade of reality. You surely know that Lwt is one of inhabitants, living in (and supervising) these "other rooms" (AAWA, AMCA, HLSP, HLSP,, etc etc. And not some additional job at these "rooms" clearing/fixing is the main problem here, - the main problem is that this job just can't be done following current LW policy (but about that - later).
    • "attempt to deceive": take it easy, but contrary to above allegory, this term was used literally. I do believe that native Englishman could find a better, more gentle term for that, especially considering possibly subconscious nature of such attempt, but I just couldn't find any better translation for Lithuanian expression "bandymas suklaidinti", defining any attempt to misinform someone, describing events in a wrong sequence or interpretation. Sorry if my expression was too "hard", and I'm even ready to bring my apologies then, but I'm sure that it's better to let you know how some your movements may look like to seasoned admin eye. Both we are admins, thus in addition to "rooms", supervised by Lwt, we are supervising some other, much more important "rooms", populated by "LW policy", "Friendliness", "Goodwill", "Fair play", and other high-sounding-titled inhabitants. We should strictly safeguard them against any violation by anyone, admins included. So, if some admin reverts any other user legitimate edition, motivating revertion by illegitimate reason, you should remind him about LW policy. Remind him also that revert just can't seem well-meant, if that reason (regardless - valid or not) even doesn't exist at the moment of revertion. Recommend him also avoid using exclamation marks in comments to such editions - some users may interpret them as unfriendly shouting, warning or expression of your dumbfounded astonishment. Yes, I didn't like this revert, but no more, - thus just rereverted it, supplying according reasoning. You found this undo "dubious". I'd understand, if you asked me to explain in more details the reasons of this undo. But no - you just rereverted my edition, telling me to go to AP if I wanna know the reason. And what I found here? Terrible story about unfriendly admin, suddenly and reasonless rereverting your editions and confusing other users. That sounded indeed unfair, especially right after another, very fresh our "discussion". I'm old and experienced, thus it's not easy to confuse me or make me anger. I know about your good intentions and this knowledge dims any possible momentary irritation. But not all our users have such experience or patience... Now try to answer honestly yourself: which edition could confuse and misguide mentioned newbie?
  • post-preamble:Well, sorry for such oversized preamble comments - hope they didn't made things even worse ;). Let's try to return to other your questions. But before that we should bring more definition and discuss some terms to make sure we are speaking about the same objects. Let's take term "Album" and statement "These albums do exist anyway". Hope with "Album" we have no any disagreements: one of most fundamental requirements for any LW-Album - it must be released; any my home-made audio CD or MP3 collection isn't an Album in LW terms. (there are more restrictions, but let's omit them). Things are more complicated speaking about the meaning of statement "This release does exist". It may be based on several quite different raison d'etre:
    • religious (based on belief): "I can't prove that, but Album (God) does exist anyway - I just trust in that"
    • scientific (based on facts and logics, often quite sophisticated): "Album (Black Hole) does exist - I can prove that logically from known (direct and indirect) facts, even without having possibility to see/touch it"
    • pseudo-scientific (based on mix of ignorance, un/intentionally selected invalid "facts" or/and awry logics): "Object does exist - I can prove that scientifically calculating the position of star Algol in the constellation Perseus, the most evil star in the sky"
    • sensory: "Object does exist - I can see/touch it"
    • informatics: "Any object doesn't exist till some (direct) information about this object existence is available"
You may like that or not, but current LW conception of Album existence evidence actually is based on the last approach: Album doesn't exist, if we don't have any reliable information about its release. Neither "scientific" nor even sensory arguments can't change this definition. I agree - that's very strict and limited approach, but for a while we don't know any other way to protect LW from flood of all kind fake objects. If you disagree with such policy - initiate, discuss and make required changes in it, but the most general schema of trusted editor work will remain the same:
  1. Strictly follow LW policy
  2. If some task goes in contradiction to the policy - change the task or policy if possible and follow #1. Otherwise - follow #1.
  • plain text: So, if Album does exist, LW-page may be created for it, and then this page should contain a complete tracklist, where each track is represented as link to its page (exception may be done only in rare cases, for albums with some non-musical tracks aside with songs). As you know, this requirement is valid even for songs without any lyrics (instrumentals). Thus I'd strongly recommend not to create any albums with incomplete (or "black") tracklists, using a simple list of songs with known lyrics instead, if such list is required for some reasons. For searchability reasons actual Album page then should contain only redirect to that list until it's incomplete.
  • homeless pages: Yes, indeed - our policies demand replacing producers, composers and such by an actual performer of the song. And that's valid for all songs, residing on artist and/or album pages. As was mentioned already, once album page was created, it should contain a full list of songs, titled according this requirement (lw:pn). But what if that's not an album (in lw-terms, discussed above)? What for should we violate lw policy, creating countless pseudo-album pages, with countless links to homeless, artistless, albumless and, what's the most strange - lyricless songs? Again - why just a simple subpage, listing only known songs, performed in particular language, can't be used? I see - you say that someone performed a big job, making a lists of these songs in each lang? Yes, it wouldn't be very wise (and fair) to just wipe it. But contrary to Album, simple subpage with songlist isn't an object of mentioned limitations of policy, ergo - it may contain not only incomplete, but "black" list also, if that's desirable.
  • Album pages (or WP and mutual support):
    • WP: No, "WP link referring in some way" isn't sufficient for using it as wp-link for any object until that's not a link to an article or at least a section, dedicated to that object. Our object is LW-Album or, to be precise, soundtrack album release. Have you checked these wp-links? Seems you've mentioned you have. But then you should have notice, that only root page of your project have a wp page, dedicated to this soundtrack release. All other wp-links lead us to the articles about film, even without any sections, dedicated to soundtracks. Strictly speaking, most of them don't contain any info about soundtrack release at all, thus all of them can't be used as any evidence of soundtrack release, ergo - should be removed (like mentioned Polish wp link)
    • mutual support: That's strange, but that's not the first time I hear your references to some lack of support, addressed to me. I even used to plead not guilty, trying to explain such strange your opinion by radical differences in the scope of our activities. Do you remember my explanation that my experience and the power of Lwt hardly may be effectively used for most of tasks you are supervising? Do you really think it would be better to use me together with my LWT for manual-editing-speed job instead of using bot for its native, multithreaded tasks? And finally - do you really think my contribution to LW and support for users are insufficient? Then I'm glad we started this discussion - I'd like to hear how I could improve my efficiency and user-support (mutual, surely).
  • resume: Resume is actually very simple: while policy isn't changed, it should be followed (after any change it should be followed also - that's exactly what it was created for... :)). And use better valid songlist subpage instead of invalid albumpage (wasn't that mentioned in my previous response?). Damn, what then I was talking about all this time (it took almost entire day)?! :). Once again sorry for oversized msg, - just one more evidence of my inability to explain something in a short and clear form. And take it easy, if you find some my wording improper again. That's all my broken English... :)
Cheers, --Senvaikis (talk) 12:56, May 28, 2014 (UTC)

Questionable translations

Can some of you check these translations in the languages they're familiar with? The German ones were horrible machine translations, and I suspect the rest are no better, but I'd like someone to check at least one other language before deleting the whole bunch. Thanks! — 6×9 (Talk) 07:32, July 26, 2014 (UTC)

This French one's a googlation, too.      Lichtweber       talk    service   11:50, July 26, 2014 (UTC)
Thanks! — 6×9 (Talk) 20:17, July 26, 2014 (UTC)

Other Songs & {{split}}

For those who haven't followed the discussion on Senv's talk page, here's a quick recap:

  • The {{split}} template should be displayed on the artist page itself, not the talk page, where hardly anyone will see it – here is an example how it might look.
  • The severity thresholds should be raised somewhat; more importantly, for artists with few OS (e.g. less than 10) tl:split should be left off; instead {{stub}} should be added if there are no albums at all.
  • Some flexibility could still be allowed; like a lower level when OS count is near the lower threshold and more songs are allocated to albums than in OS.

Any objections or suggestions? We still need to agree on thresholds; 10/30/80 seems reasonable to me, or maybe 10/30/90 for multiples of 3? — 6×9 (Talk) 14:10, October 16, 2014 (UTC)

Yep... any response - depressive picture :(.
Well, 6, - what's then your suggestion - start making changes, based on our opinion or try to wake up other admins?
--Senvaikis (talk) 10:23, October 20, 2014 (UTC)
Sounds very reasonable to me. Pics could be half the size, imo :)      Lichtweber       talk    service   16:05, October 20, 2014 (UTC)
@Senv: Let's make it a full week and wait until Thursday; I doubt the OS will disappear :-) (And if they do – even better!)
@both: reduced size even more; I don't think going smaller than that would be useful… — 6×9 (Talk) 16:50, October 20, 2014 (UTC)

Week's up: I have updated the template documentation (going with 10/30/90). Someone please check that the wording is clear & I haven't missed/left out anything… @Senv: if you're OK with these rules, don't hesitate to let your tool loose – I know you want to :-) — 6×9 (Talk) 18:40, October 23, 2014 (UTC)

Documentation looks good to me. Trainman (talk) 01:30, October 24, 2014 (UTC)


Now that Lwt started his {{Stub}}-flagging tour, I come to find that we should work on this a little.

1. Appearance
For my taste it ruins the pages. Too big, too much unnecessary information. Suggestion: Split {{Stub}} into three separate tl:

2. Criteria
On which criteria selects Lwt the pages - sry if I missed sth from prev. discussions? For instance, the Chaim Topol page might not be complete but at least it has all required external sources and one complete album. Why flag this one a stub? Maybe we should work on the criteria, too?

And quite frankly: I doubt, if stub-flagging makes too much sense on our site because we are not an encyclopedia, are we? Imho it would be more important to mark misattributed song and artist pages in some way, for instance TV-Shows (Family Guy) as artists, or Disney as an LW artist. What do you guys think?

3. How to stop Lwt from flagging on his next tour?
Some artists pages will not ever become "non-stubs", for instance Friedrich Schiller: He's been dead for a while now, and I don't think we can expect any releases from him ;). So is there a possibility to fmark those "eternal stubs" in some way, so that the pages won't be flagged a stub again?      Lichtweber       talk    service   12:48, October 24, 2014 (UTC)

  1. I'd agree that info structure, produced by {{Stub}}, is little clumsy, but I'm not sure if splitting it into 3 different templates would be a good idea. (@6:Maybe it would be possible to make this split "internal", depending on the page type?)
  2. You've accepted this criteria ((OS<10 AND Albums.count=0) -> stub) as "very reasonable" just 1 thread above. As you understand, albs.count should include both blue and red albums, so in one way or other, but artist links or just page text should parsed to count them. What this parsing shoud be based on, in your opinion? Hope you agree - on lw:pn. So. Lwt counts album links on artist page, using pattern "===?\s*\[\[.+?:.+? \(\d{4}\)\|(.+?) \(\d{4}\)\]\]\s*===?". (hope now you'll notice the part of pattern, mismatched on your sample page). I agree that such evaluation may seem too strict, but Lwt has no better choice as strictly following lw:pn. So, some artist may be misattributed to stub just only due to the typo in display part, as it has happened with Død Trær or Dzep. But on the other hand - weren't these "misattributings" useful?
  3. Leaving this part for your discussion with 6 or someone else, - sorry, but that's too long story for me atm...
--Senvaikis (talk) 18:41, October 24, 2014 (UTC)

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